User Tag List

Page 43 of 76 FirstFirst ... 334041424344454653 ... LastLast
Results 631 to 645 of 1130

Thread: The Gospel Proper

  1. #631
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Heavenly Places
    Posts
    17,747
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 12,353 Times in 8,605 Posts

    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147854
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    It has been my observation that those that willingly humble themselves unto baptism are generally more agreeable to the fruits of the spirit than those that spitefully argue against the ordinance.
    By that argument, how about you tithing,another requirement, ordinance, of the law, like water baptism, humbly, say to my favorite charity, me, 25% of your net worth, so that you are more agreeable to the fruits of the spirit?
    Saint John W

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to john w For Your Post:

    Clete (December 6th, 2018),glorydaz (December 6th, 2018),steko (December 6th, 2018)

  3. #632
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    14,037
    Thanks
    11,648
    Thanked 19,700 Times in 11,069 Posts

    Blog Entries
    5
    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147687

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    It has been my observation that those that willingly humble themselves unto baptism are generally more agreeable to the fruits of the spirit than those that spitefully argue against the ordinance.
    It has been my observation that people believe whatever they want to believe and then feel that they are the humble, gentle folks that have all the best qualities. While those that disagree with them are arrogant and evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Right Divider For Your Post:

    Clete (December 6th, 2018),glorydaz (December 6th, 2018),joeyarnoldvn (December 6th, 2018),steko (December 6th, 2018)

  5. #633
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,172
    Thanks
    490
    Thanked 6,032 Times in 3,230 Posts

    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147762
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    ...my favorite charity, me,....

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    Idolater (December 6th, 2018),joeyarnoldvn (December 6th, 2018),Right Divider (December 7th, 2018)

  7. #634
    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,869
    Thanks
    189
    Thanked 324 Times in 286 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    134754
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I'm going to quote here from the 'Catechism,'
    Thanks for the clarification. I suggest you have a different view because your source of truth is not scripture. Why quote from anything other than the bible?

    1 Pt. 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
    Wretched man that I am.

  8. #635
    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,869
    Thanks
    189
    Thanked 324 Times in 286 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    134754
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Baptism in the OT

    There is not a single ordinance for immersion of any person, whether great or small. The person was never applied to the element, but the element, whether blood, oil, or water, was invariably applied to the man, or part of the man. In all the figurative language in scripture, we find many figures of sprinkling, ablution, and affusions, to picture the LORD God's methods of purifications, but never any figure of immersion, whether in the OT or NT. Only tradition finds immersion, but not sound exegesis. Immersion is a tradition, an assertion w/o proof, and thus is merely an assumption.

    The first passover was a sprinkling on 3 places, and, from that day on, for Israel, sprinkling became a symbol of the application of the blood of deliverance. This is true to such an extent that Hebrew 9:9-14 KJV even the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as a sprinkling.

    The blood of sprinkling of the Israelites: Exodus 24:6- 8 KJV; Exodus 29:16 KJV, Exodus 29:20 KJV; Lev. 1:5 KJV,Lev. 1:11 KJV; Lev. 3:2 KJV, Lev. 3:8 KJV, Lev. 3:13 KJV; Lev. 7:2 KJV, Lev. 7:14 KJV; and on and on....

    The water separation :

    "Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him. .....But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean." Numbers 19:13 KJV, Numbers 19:20 KJV

    Washings with water:

    -to pour water over the surface, to rinse-it never means immersion. Hands were washed by pouring water over them..

    "But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water." Lev. 6:28 KJV

    "And whomsoever he toucheth that hath the issue, and hath not rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And the vessel of earth, that he toucheth which hath the issue, shall be broken: and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water." Lev. 15:11-12 KJV "Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. " Ez. 13:11-14 KJV

    The word "baptism in the OT stands for all the ceremonial sprinklings, pourings, and washings:


    "Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:2 KJV

    "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Hebrews 9:10 KJV

    "And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed." Lev. 11:32 KJV

    This is the only reference to immersion in the OT-everywhere else it is sprinklings, pourings, washings.


    But notice:

    -it refers to things, not persons
    -the immersion was not just for a moment, but for a day until evening
    -it was for the purpose of making the unclean clean
    -the immersion was purely ritual
    -the immersion was entirely for the LORD God's earthly people, the nation Israel

    The immersion of one person by another was entirely unknown to Israel. The "modern" rite of immersion finds no proof or precedent in the OT scripture..

    The OT does recognize a future "baptism" by sprinkling-the unique and unprecedented sprinkling of the Holy Spirit, flowing from the throne of the LORD God:

    "Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider." Is. 52:13-15 KJV

    "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ez. 36:24-27 KJV

    That is, the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, per Joel 2:28 KJV, and Acts 2:17 KJV :


    "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:.." Joel 2:28 KJV

    " And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:...:" Acts 2:17 KJV

    The astonishing result is that Israel and the nations, including all animal life(explaining the future no fear of animals in the millennial kingdom), will become filled with the Spirit. In that future day, the so-called "Great Commission" of Matthew 28:19-20 KJV will be literally fulfilled-the future Spirit baptism.

    Self "immersion" was an invention of the Jewish scribes, and it is foreign to the law of Moses. The immersions had their origin in unbelieving Israel, the Jewish leadership, after they rejected their true LORD God. They not only rejected the Messiah, their Messiah,the Christ, but also the scriptures that "typified" the Messiah/Christ and His Spirit, because the sprinkling of the water, blood, and oil, pointed to the application of the Messiah's blood and Spirit. The OT testifies that in the sprinkling or pouring, the recipients were passive, while in self-immersion, the self-righteous man was active. The sprinkling pictured the LORD God's work, not man's, as the LORD God said:

    "For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses." Is. 44:3-4 KJV

    In the law, there is no immersion, or even a figure of immersion-it was a tradition added by the apostate Jewish leadership, the uninspired oral law of self-righteous Talmudic Judaism. "Immersion" is a Talmudic word, but not a biblical word. The scriptures, in contrast, abound with figures of sprinkling and pouring. Any immersion was of objects, not persons, and even with objects, the defiled object was to be put into water. The sprinklings were self washings=designated as "baptisms." The word water occurs over 500 times in the "volume of the book," but not in a single case does it refer to, or even suggest, immersion.
    There were washings in the OT but we are in a different dispensation.
    In your understanding, what method of water baptism did Paul perform?
    Wretched man that I am.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to turbosixx For Your Post:

    joeyarnoldvn (December 6th, 2018)

  10. #636
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    23,647
    Thanks
    14,780
    Thanked 37,265 Times in 18,615 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147804
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Now you're a liar.
    She refuses to stop making false statements.

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to glorydaz For Your Post:

    joeyarnoldvn (December 6th, 2018),Right Divider (December 7th, 2018)

  12. #637
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    20
    Thanks
    29
    Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    I would hope baptism is not an requirement for salvation.

  13. #638
    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,869
    Thanks
    189
    Thanked 324 Times in 286 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    134754
    Quote Originally Posted by joeyarnoldvn View Post
    I would hope baptism is not an requirement for salvation.
    Do you believe Jesus?
    Mk. 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    Out of the crowd who listened to Peter, which ones were added?
    Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
    Wretched man that I am.

  14. #639
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    20
    Thanks
    29
    Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    I was baptized when I was 13. It is good to get baptized.

  15. #640
    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,869
    Thanks
    189
    Thanked 324 Times in 286 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    134754
    Quote Originally Posted by joeyarnoldvn View Post
    I was baptized when I was 13. It is good to get baptized.
    True, but do you understand what it's for? I would suggest we should know and understand what the bible says baptism is/does.
    Wretched man that I am.

  16. #641
    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    The land of ice and snow.
    Posts
    4,830
    Thanks
    862
    Thanked 1,593 Times in 1,257 Posts

    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    188840
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    It has been my observation that people believe whatever they want to believe and then feel that they are the humble, gentle folks that have all the best qualities. While those that disagree with them are arrogant and evil.
    I've observed that as well, but that doesn't change that I have never seen an arrogant spirit from someone who sought baptism.

  17. #642
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,326
    Thanks
    150
    Thanked 202 Times in 175 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    21805
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. I suggest you have a different view because your source of truth is not scripture.
    My source of truth is In Scripture though.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Why quote from anything other than the bible?
    Because the Bible doesn't tell me what happens to someone, who comes to authentic faith, and then suddenly drops dead of a blood clot, before being baptized---but the Church's bishops do, and as I said, the bishops are in the Bible. So I am believing the Bible, when I heed the bishops.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    1 Pt. 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
    Baptism's been the Church's thing from Day One, and she's never stopped baptizing, with water. We all know that sacraments are a coordination between eternal reality, and the present moment, such that there's a coupling. The water baptism, and the baptism of the Spirit, are coordinated together to indicate one reality, that is both physical and spiritual, temporal and eternal. And, John 3:5 KJV says both.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  18. #643
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,326
    Thanks
    150
    Thanked 202 Times in 175 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    21805
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Do you believe Jesus?
    Mk. 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
    According to your view, Mark 16:16 KJV means that someone who tragically loses their life, after coming to true Christian faith in the Gospel, but before they got water baptized, then too bad; they're going to burn---better luck next time! oh this was their only chance.

    That just can't be, and I think you agree that it just can't be, so you've got to really get imaginative and creative in how you're interpreting Mark 16:16 KJV to make it fit with the above hypothetical and rhetorical scenario.

    I would contend that the hypothetical individual above is saved, will be saved, even though they weren't baptized before they died.

    I think you would agree with that, but what do you say?
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Idolater For Your Post:

    Rosenritter (December 7th, 2018)

  20. #644
    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,869
    Thanks
    189
    Thanked 324 Times in 286 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    134754
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I would contend that the hypothetical individual above is saved, will be saved, even though they weren't baptized before they died.
    I believe they are saved but that's my opinion. Judging them is God's end of the stick. We can't use that hypothetical situation to make what Jesus said untrue.
    Mk. 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
    Jesus's words are the truth.

    I would suggest do not hesitate to be baptized after belief. We see in scripture time after time it was done right then.
    Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family.

    Let God judge those who tragically die before baptism.

    Of all those who heard Peter, who were the ones added to the church?
    Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
    Wretched man that I am.

  21. #645
    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,869
    Thanks
    189
    Thanked 324 Times in 286 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    134754
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    So I am believing the Bible, when I heed the bishops.
    I suggest you're not. Bishops are men and men can be wrong.
    29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

    The bible is not wrong.

    You say we need bishops because the bible is inadequate? It has everything we need so that we do not need to rely on men.
    2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Baptism's been the Church's thing from Day One, and she's never stopped baptizing, with water. We all know that sacraments are a coordination between eternal reality, and the present moment, such that there's a coupling. The water baptism, and the baptism of the Spirit, are coordinated together to indicate one reality, that is both physical and spiritual, temporal and eternal. And, John 3:5 KJV says both.
    Your church has changed baptism into something different than what we find in God's word.
    Wretched man that I am.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us