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Thread: Hypocrisy Of Calvinism Huxters' Talk Of Efficacy

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Error!

    The 'Didache' is an ancient document. Ignatius's epistles are ancient documents.
    But, see, someone can just as easily come along and reply to what you wrote, and say, for instance:

    Error! The Epic of Gilgamesh is an ancient document.

    Besides,

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8908/8908-h/8908-h.htm

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    But, see, someone can just as easily come along and reply to what you wrote, and say, for instance:

    Error! The Epic of Gilgamesh is an ancient document.

    Besides,

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8908/8908-h/8908-h.htm
    Sigh. So we have to qualify that we're here talking about Christian documents?

    And I wonder why a Protestant wouldn't like Ignatius's epistles.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post

    In what sense is the curse upon the world of nature a punishment for sin? In the case of unsaved sinners, the curse upon nature is strictly and simply a punishment for sin. In the case of Christian people, the curse upon nature is not strictly a penalty for sin, for they have been delivered from that by Christ's atonement. Rather, in their case, the curse upon nature is to be regarded as a consequence of sin and a part of God's fatherly chastening or discipline by which he prepares us for the lice eternal.

    In what sense is physical death itself a punishment for sin? Death is called "the wages of sin" (Rom. 6:23). Wages means "that which we have earned'' or "what we deserve." In the case of the unsaved person, death is simply the wages of sin, a judicial penalty. In the case of the Christian, however, Christ has already suffered death as his substitute. The Christian still has to die, of course, but in the case of the Christian, death is no longer a penalty. It remains an enemy, but it is not a Judicial penalty. Rather, to the Christian, death is a change by which God transfers him to the region and the condition of perfect holiness. Thus physical death, to the Christian, is part of God's fatherly discipline. It proceeds not from God's wrath, but from his love in the ease of the Christian.
    Calvinism's problem does not go away one iota with these statements.

    "In the case of unsaved sinners, the curse upon nature is strictly and simply a punishment for sin."

    Calvinism's inexorable problem, here, is that every elect person, before he/she has been saved, has spent some period as an unsaved sinner--an elect, unsaved sinner--and thus, will have, for the duration of that period, suffered, to some extent, that "punishment for sin" referred to by the Westminster divines. That is, every elect, unsaved sinner (just like the non-elect) will have been punished, to some extent, for his/her sin. The Westminster divines clearly did not say "In the case of [non-elect, to the exclusion of all elect,] unsaved sinners...."

    "The Christian still has to die, of course, but in the case of the Christian, death is no longer a penalty. It remains an enemy, but it is not a Judicial penalty."

    One Calvinism-damning failure, here, is that the divines are flat-out contradicting where they, in another place, have clearly stated that "death itself" is one of the "punishments of sin in this world...that befall US in OUR bodies", which is nothing but an unguarded admission that they ("US"), as Christians, suffer PUNISHMENT in their ("OUR") bodies. Is the reader supposed to think that they meant that they suffer punishment, while, somehow, not suffering penalty? Any divine who comes to a point where he has to appeal to his audience to just please bear with him while he (in, perhaps, some 500-page scholastic excursus) endeavours to distinguish between punishment, on the one hand, and penalty, on the other, as though one thing is signified by the one word, whereas another thing, different from the former, is signified by the other--in such a case, any patient, reasonable hearer will, at that point (if no sooner) come rightly to suspect casuistry and imposture.

    One may notice, also, that in the first sentence, the divines wrote the phrase, "a penalty", and in the second, they wrote, "a Judicial penalty". This makes me wonder whether they held that the class of all penalty is divisible into sub-classes: Judicial penalty and non-Judicial penalty. Or, did they consider all penalty to be Judicial, so that the word 'Judicial' in the phrase "Judicial penalty" is redundant, and does not really modify the word 'penalty'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Sigh. So we have to qualify that we're here talking about Christian documents?

    And I wonder why a Protestant wouldn't like Ignatius's epistles.
    But, who is obligated to assume that the epistles to which you refer are of Christian authorship?

    And I wonder why an anti-Protestant would like the epistles to which you refer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    But, who is obligated to assume that the epistles to which you refer are of Christian authorship?
    People who aren't conspiratorialists.
    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    And I wonder why an anti-Protestant would like the epistles to which you refer.
    I don't like them. Well, OK I like them, but I don't like them because of the light shed on Church organization at such an early point; I like them because Ignatius was an authentic Church pastor, and he wrote letters to other dioceses, and his words belie a man who thinks just as deeply about the Christian faith as we do here on TOL, the main difference being that he happened to have lived just very briefly after this all occurred! His thoughts on everything that he shared with us are all fascinating because of when he lived, and who he was (he was third bishop of Antioch, Peter himself being the first bishop of Antioch). It doesn't matter if you're Catholic or Antiprotestant like me, or Protestant; Ignatius's letters are a precious peak right into the mind of one of my older brothers, a fellow Christian, and a much more mature Christian than I could ever be, since he's been a Christian now around 1,900 years, and I've only been a Christian for a small fraction of that.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    What would Ignatius do? WWID?

    Do you know that 'INRI' means 'Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jewish people?' 'Jesus' in Latin starts with an I. 'Rex' is Latin for 'king,' and like with 'Jesus' in Latin, 'Jew' in Latin also starts with an I. INRI.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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