User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 36

Thread: Hypocrisy Of Calvinism Huxters' Talk Of Efficacy

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    128
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 43 Times in 28 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    6459

    Hypocrisy Of Calvinism Huxters' Talk Of Efficacy

    In his Exposition Of The Epistle To The Romans, the Calvinist, Robert Haldane, wrote:

    A just God cannot punish a second time for the same offence. If Christ has paid the debt of all sinners, there is nothing remaining to pay in the case of any man. Would it be just that any should be punished in hell for the sins for which Christ was punished on earth? If Christ bore the sins of all men in his own body on the tree, shall any man bear them a second time?
    Yet, according to Calvinism's cherished Westminster Larger Catechism, even the ELECT, themselves, suffer at least some of the punishment due at least some of their sin:

    Q. 28. What are the punishments of sin in this world?

    A. The punishments of sin in this world are either inward, as blindness of mind, a reprobate sense, strong delusions, hardness of heart, horror of conscience, and vile affections; or outward, as the curse of God upon the creatures for our sakes, and all other evils that befall us in our bodies, names, estates, relations, and employments; together with death itself.
    Would it be just that any ELECT person should be punished on earth (in his/her blindness of mind, reprobate sense, strong delusions, hardness of heart, horror of conscience, vile affections, and all the evils that befall the ELECT in their bodies, names, estates, relations, employments, and in death, itself)--would it be just that any ELECT person should be punished in suffering one or more of these things for the sins for which Christ was punished on earth?

    We know that Robert Haldane died in 1842. According to the Westminster Larger Catechism, his death (among other things) was a punishment he, himself, suffered, in this world, for his own sin. So, in case Robert Haldane was one of the elect, it is clear that (as per the WLC) he, himself, was punished, in this world, for sins for which Christ had already been punished on earth.

    According to Calvinism, Robert Haldane bore, in his own body, a second time, at least some of the sins which, some 1,800 years earlier, Christ had already borne, in His own body, on the tree.

    So, according to Calvinism, to whatever end Christ's having been punished for His elect, Robert Haldane's sin, is said to have been efficacious, it is clear that, according to Calvinism, it failed to be efficacious for preventing His elect, Robert Haldane, from also being punished for his own sin.

    A just God cannot punish a second time for the same offence. If Christ has paid the debt of [His ELECT, Robert Haldane], there is nothing remaining to pay in the case of [His ELECT, Robert Haldane]. Would it be just that [His ELECT, Robert Haldane] should be punished [in his own body, on earth] for the sins for which Christ was punished on earth? If Christ bore the sins of [His ELECT, Robert Haldane] in his own body on the tree, shall [His ELECT, Robert Haldane] bear them a second time?
    And yet, the ELECT, Robert Haldane did die, and so, according to Calvinism, the ELECT, Robert Haldane, did bear his own sins a second time which Christ had already borne in His own body on the tree.
    Last edited by 7djengo7; November 8th, 2018 at 02:59 PM. Reason: emboldened the word 'us' in the phrase 'befall us in our bodies'

  2. #2
    TOL Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    573
    Thanks
    200
    Thanked 133 Times in 118 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    21702
    "A just God cannot punish a second time for the same offence. If Christ has paid the debt of all sinners, there is nothing remaining to pay in the case of any man. Would it be just that any should be punished in hell for the sins for which Christ was punished on earth?"

    People in "hell" aren't being "punished...for sins for which Christ" died for them. People in "hell" are there to be corrected, humbled, repent & be saved.

    1 Cor.5:3b I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.
    1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

    Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

    Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
    34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...

    36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
    37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

    Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
    I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

    18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
    I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...A-Universalism
    Last edited by GregoryN; November 7th, 2018 at 01:07 AM.

  3. #3
    Over 1500 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,513
    Thanks
    140
    Thanked 174 Times in 149 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    "A just God cannot punish a second time for the same offence. If Christ has paid the debt of all sinners, there is nothing remaining to pay in the case of any man. Would it be just that any should be punished in hell for the sins for which Christ was punished on earth?"

    People in "hell" aren't being "punished...for the sins for which Christ" died for them, namely all the sins of all fallen beings of all time. People in "hell" are there to be corrected, humbled, repent & be saved.

    1 Cor.5:3b I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.
    1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

    Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

    Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
    34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...

    36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
    37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

    Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
    I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

    18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
    I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)
    Christ didn't die for all sinners. Christ died for those the Father has given Him. The all is all the elect.
    Under your view, humans can be atheists and mockers of God, yet they are atoned for. You preach cheap grace.

  4. #4
    TOL Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    573
    Thanks
    200
    Thanked 133 Times in 118 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    21702
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Under your view, humans can be atheists and mockers of God, yet they are atoned for. You preach cheap grace.
    Then do you also "preach cheap grace"? Is it not true that "Under your view, humans can be atheists and mockers of God, yet they are atoned for." Was not even a Christ blaspheming serial killer of Christians atoned for (1 Tim.1:12-16)? Or do you deny this? Or just not know what your own doctrine says?

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...A-Universalism

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to GregoryN For Your Post:

    7djengo7 (November 7th, 2018)

  6. #5
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    128
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 43 Times in 28 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    6459
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Then do you also "preach cheap grace"? Is it not true that "Under your view, humans can be atheists and mockers of God, yet they are atoned for." Was not even a Christ blaspheming serial killer of Christians atoned for (1 Tim.1:12-16)? Or do you deny this? Or just not know what your own doctrine says?

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...A-Universalism
    MennoSota, like most Calvinism hucksters, will NEVER answer questions directed to him regarding what, exactly, he will deny and what, exactly, he will affirm. He will ALWAYS stonewall against every question you ask him about Calvinism, and he will ALWAYS try to divert your attention to anything other than the fact that he is incapable of defending Calvinism against what you have stated or asked. He will NEVER deal honestly with you while trying to push his ideology. He got so angry at me, for asking him simple questions which necessarily pitted Calvinism against Calvinism, that he started calling me "twisted". And, it got to the point where, apparently (and, understandably) finding no personal satisfaction in doing that, he desperately started repeatedly submitting posts with a picture of a pretzel, and no text, hoping that he might, therein, be able to satisfy some of his wrath.

    In the present scene, in this thread, he has, as you are aware, just stated that Jesus never died for mockers of God, which necessarily implies that no person who has ever been converted to Christianity was ever a mocker of God, even before his/her conversion! Amazing!

    MennoSota, like most Calvinists, doesn't think in terms of the necessary consequences of the things he affirms/denies while trying to push Calvinism, which is why, when you point out those necessary consequences, he plays dumb, and stonewalls against your question as to whether he affirms or denies those entailed propositions. MennoSota, like most Calvinists, is addicted to irrationality, and bristles when someone shines light on just how destructively his tenets grind against themselves.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to 7djengo7 For Your Post:

    glorydaz (November 8th, 2018)

  8. #6
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Heavenly Places
    Posts
    17,435
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 12,190 Times in 8,527 Posts

    Mentioned
    100 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147850
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Christ didn't die for all sinners. Christ died for those the Father has given Him. The all is all the elect.
    Under your view, humans can be atheists and mockers of God, yet they are atoned for. You preach cheap grace.
    Cheap grace, you mumble? Vs. Calvinism's satanic easy workism-"perserverance of the saints."

    So there.
    Saint John W

  9. #7
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    128
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 43 Times in 28 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    6459
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Christ didn't die for all sinners. Christ died for those the Father has given Him. The all is all the elect.
    Under your view, humans can be atheists and mockers of God, yet they are atoned for. You preach cheap grace.
    Although your post in this thread which I started is irrelevant to this thread which I started, I, nevertheless, will take the opportunity to say thanks to you for the (unsolicited, yet welcome) further revelation regarding your irrational ideology!

    Clearly, you take issue against someone saying that a person who is an atheist can become converted from being an atheist to being a Christian. In other words, according to you, no person who is a Christian could ever have been an atheist, even before he/she was converted to Christianity, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. That is, no Christian is a former atheist. Same for persons who are mockers of God; you think that no person who is a Christian can have, in time past, been a mocker of God. No Christian is a former God-mocker.

    What were you before you became a Calvinist? A Hallmark Precious Moments artist?

  10. #8
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,005
    Thanks
    113
    Thanked 166 Times in 142 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    19593
    Yeah but you're proving something wrong. Why don't you prove something right instead? If Clavinism is incorrect, then what is correct?
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  11. #9
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    128
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 43 Times in 28 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    6459
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Yeah but you're proving something wrong. Why don't you prove something right instead? If Clavinism is incorrect, then what is correct?
    I beg your pardon, but, are you addressing me?

  12. #10
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,005
    Thanks
    113
    Thanked 166 Times in 142 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    19593
    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    I beg your pardon, but, are you addressing me?
    Yes. You're going really hard at the Clavinist school of theological thought. What's your own school? Once you burn down Clavinism, until it's ashes, then to which theological school do Clavinists go?
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  13. #11
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    128
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 43 Times in 28 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    6459
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Yes. You're going really hard at the Clavinist school of theological thought. What's your own school? Once you burn down Clavinism, until it's ashes, then to which theological school do Clavinists go?
    I've been pitting tenets of Calvinism against tenets of Calvinism...or, at least, I've been pitting tenets of purported apologists for Calvinism against tenets of purported apologists for Calvinism. To what, exactly, are you referring by the term, "Clavinism"? I'm not familiar with that term.

    Also, what do you mean by "burn down" in regards to a school of theological thought? What, exactly, would it be for a school of theological thought to be burned down?

  14. #12
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,005
    Thanks
    113
    Thanked 166 Times in 142 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    19593
    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    I've been pitting tenets of Calvinism against tenets of Calvinism...or, at least, I've been pitting tenets of purported apologists for Calvinism against tenets of purported apologists for Calvinism.
    I know; I've been watching, participating some.
    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    To what, exactly, are you referring by the term, "Clavinism"? I'm not familiar with that term.
    'Clavinism' is to reformed theology, what 'Romanism' or 'papism' is to Catholic theology.

    It's a barb. Turnabout being fair play and all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Also, what do you mean by "burn down" in regards to a school of theological thought? What, exactly, would it be for a school of theological thought to be burned down?
    It would be utterly discredited. Only wonton fools would subscribe. Like flat earth.

    But I still want to know, once you're successful, what is your opinion, about where those then formerly of that theological school, should instead turn?

    What is your theological position? Which school? I'm of the Catholic school.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  15. #13
    LIFETIME MEMBER meshak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    13,964
    Thanks
    3,943
    Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,518 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Yes. You're going really hard at the Clavinist school of theological thought. What's your own school? Once you burn down Clavinism, until it's ashes, then to which theological school do Clavinists go?

    don't you mean Calvinism?
    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

  16. #14
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,005
    Thanks
    113
    Thanked 166 Times in 142 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    19593
    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    don't you mean Calvinism?
    Obviously. And I'm now on record as saying it. I'm not being subtle in stealing 'Clavin' from St. John W. He invented it, and I blatantly plagiarize him, in his honor. I never thought that it wasn't very clear what I mean by 'Clavin:' John "Cliff/Cliffy" Clavin.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Idolater For Your Post:

    glorydaz (November 8th, 2018),meshak (November 8th, 2018)

  18. #15
    ☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) ☜☜☜☜☞☞☞☞ A Calvinist! ☜☜☜☜☜ Ask Mr. Religion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Chandler, Arizona USA
    Posts
    6,784
    Thanks
    4,466
    Thanked 3,943 Times in 2,261 Posts

    Blog Entries
    148
    Mentioned
    88 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)



    Rep Power
    2147691
    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Would it be just that any ELECT person should be punished on earth (in his/her blindness of mind, reprobate sense, strong delusions, hardness of heart, horror of conscience, vile affections, and all the evils that befall the ELECT in their bodies, names, estates, relations, employments, and in death, itself)--would it be just that any ELECT person should be punished in suffering one or more of these things for the sins for which Christ was punished on earth?
    It is wonderful that you have taken up some of the standards to study. It would also help if you could avail yourself of some decent commentaries on the Westminster Standards (WCF, WLC, WSC). They are ancient documents written in the style of their time and the grammar and phraseology particular to that time. This will avoid anachronistically reading error into them based upon your attempt to just "wing it" as in assigning "punishment" where it is not actually intended.

    WLC
    28. What are the punishments of sin in this world?
    A. The punishments of sin in this world, are either inward, as blindness of mind, a reprobate sense, strong delusions, hardness of heart, horror of conscience, and vile affections: or outward, as the curse of God upon the creatures for our sake; and all other evils that befall us in our bodies, names, estates, relations, and employments; together with death itself.

    Scripture proofs supplied for this question that should not be overlooked:

    • Eph. 4:18
    • Rom. 1:28
    • 2 Thess. 2:11
    • Rom. 2:5
    • Isa. 33:14; Gen. 4:13; Matt. 27:4
    • Rom. 1:26
    • Gen. 3:17
    • Deut. 28:15-68

    The whole world of nature is under a curse of God, as we learn from Genesis 3:17-19 as well as other places in Scripture.

    In what sense is the curse upon the world of nature a punishment for sin? In the case of unsaved sinners, the curse upon nature is strictly and simply a punishment for sin. In the case of Christian people, the curse upon nature is not strictly a penalty for sin, for they have been delivered from that by Christ's atonement. Rather, in their case, the curse upon nature is to be regarded as a consequence of sin and a part of God's fatherly chastening or discipline by which he prepares us for the lice eternal.

    In what sense is physical death itself a punishment for sin? Death is called "the wages of sin" (Rom. 6:23). Wages means "that which we have earned'' or "what we deserve." In the case of the unsaved person, death is simply the wages of sin, a judicial penalty. In the case of the Christian, however, Christ has already suffered death as his substitute. The Christian still has to die, of course, but in the case of the Christian, death is no longer a penalty. It remains an enemy, but it is not a Judicial penalty. Rather, to the Christian, death is a change by which God transfers him to the region and the condition of perfect holiness. Thus physical death, to the Christian, is part of God's fatherly discipline. It proceeds not from God's wrath, but from his love in the ease of the Christian.

    The question and answer in the WLC rightly stirs up the Christian, as children so stirred up by their Fathers, such that they do not immediately flee to the fifth petal, perseverance (or OSAS for the non-Calvinist).

    R. Haldane's commentary on Romans is well worth reading. I hope you continue to read and learn from it.

    I also suggest you start with the WSC and this wonderful exposition of the same:
    https://reformed.org/documents/fishe...ndex_fish.html

    AMR
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



    Do you confess?
    Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
    AMR's Randomata Blog
    Learn Reformed Doctrine
    I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
    Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
    The best TOL Social Group: here.
    If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
    Why?



Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us