toldailytopic: How old is the earth?

Stripe · Apr 11, 2010

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
I'm not sure anyone understands why I keep quoting Hebrews 11:3
Either that, or I'm not sure anyone understands what it means to have faith.

Faith is the evidence of someone that is in Christ. It doesn't mean we have to understand everything, it's just that we believe Him above everything.

Noah did not seek the wisdom of men as to whether or not it could rain enough to flood the world. He believed God. Abraham had no evidence that a man could rise from the dead, yet he raised the knife believing God.

Faith comes from hearing. Faith is something you receive when you believe God. By faith Noah..., by faith David... and so on. When men say that the world was created some other way and in some other time frame than what is stated by God, it reveals that they are not in the faith. They may not understand it, but they believe God apart from what they perceive as evidence to the contrary.

Hebrews 11:3 is not saying that we believe that the world was prepared by the word of God, or that we believe that the things which see were made from what is not visible. Rather, because we have faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. Big difference. Again, faith is the evidence.

Sure. I find it hard to trust the word of a man who claims to have faith in the greatest deed yet refuses to accept even the possibility that he might be wrong on a little bit of science.

But that doesn't lead me to the conclusion that such a man must be unsaved.

Psalmist said:
toldailytopic: How old is the earth?

Introduction: Long ago and far away, it was in the beginning God…Created…And it took six days.

Thomas the Psalmist 1:1-9
The VATM
(The Version According to Me)
1 Let there be light and dark, and there is.
2 The land separated from the sea, and life created, and it still is.
3 Vegetation was created, and now we have little and big cans of V-8.
4 Next the sun moon & stars were and they are still in place.
5 Then was created fish, plants, reptiles, and birds,
and a program called “Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom.”
6 Next livestock and wild animals for the zoos,
and created a man to be curator the zoos and a woman to be curator of the man.
7 And God saw that it was good, and said and said, “Now it is time to rest.”
8 Then God said, “People, your on the clock.”
9 Thus ends the lesson.

I think the earth is not quite seven thousand years old; I think the length of the six day of creation and the seventh day of rest were twenty-four hour days, which the twenty-four hour day was established when God said let there be. But I wasn't there, but God was and is, and God knows.

:thumb:

Alate_One said:
The creation God left behind shows us there was a great flash of light, an origin. I don't believe the six days are actually intended as an ordered account of "this then that". Considering the numbers are cardinal rather than ordinal in the original Hebrew, its a reasonable assumption. Plus the verb translated "to create", may not actually mean that . . .

I think you're going to need a bit more than an argument from silence against the weight of spoken opposition to your ideas.

Unfortunately because you only look at the English text and are unaware of your own cultural bias you've rendered yourself incapable of sitting down to figure out what Genesis 1 is ACTUALLY saying.

We are just as capable of reading the original text as you are. Genesis 1 (along with numerous other passages) actually says, "Six days" in every language. Cultural biases might be a factor when ordering a haircut, but this written word is impossible to get wrong.

As for Exodus, do you believe God laid down and RESTED on the seventh day, like a human would?

Exodus doesn't say God lay down. Why should we listen to your ranting about other languages and biases when you can't even read simple English?

And God said, "Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

Do you believe there's a vault in the sky with windows? If not You're "making God into a liar" in your own scheme of things. If you try to explain these in light of science, then you are doing the same thing you accuse me of.

The vault is not in the sky. It's between water. That's the thing that broke and made the fountains. You need to get the physics of what you're talking about consistent before you start mocking it.

Guess you're in that category. I don't modify scripture to fit science. I take it for what it is, ancient descriptions that are not meant to teach science, but WERE meant to teach theology and order. Genesis 1 is a semi-poetic structure that specifically attacks pagan, polytheistic ideas in the Ancient Near East. When viewed in that light it becomes an even more amazing document, showing God's training and molding of His people to spread His message.

Which is no evidence for your side and no evidence against ours. So let's stick to the science if that's your game. :up:

Selaphiel · Apr 11, 2010

Stripe said:
Which is no evidence for your side and no evidence against ours. So let's stick to the science if that's your game.

So where is your scientific evidence that demonstrates that ALL methods for dating the earth are wrong? When you have done that you can present your scientific evidence that supports that the earth is 6000 years old.

Your lame moon recession evidence is nothing but a worn out creationist fallacy which has already been refuted (as demonstrated by the article both me and The Barbarian linked).

Oh no... it's Sozo · Apr 11, 2010

Stripe said:
Sure. I find it hard to trust the word of a man who claims to have faith in the greatest deed yet refuses to accept even the possibility that he might be wrong on a little bit of science.

Based on what the Bible teaches, it's not "hard", it's impossible.

Talkng to OEC's about the things of God is pointless. They have zero understanding of what it means to be a Christian or what it means to have faith. They don't get it at all. In their defense, it appears that neither do most YEC's. My last posts went over the head of both. :sigh:

Alate_One · Apr 11, 2010

Stripe said:
Sure. I find it hard to trust the word of a man who claims to have faith in the greatest deed yet refuses to accept even the possibility that he might be wrong on a little bit of science.

Its not a "little bit" of science, its pretty well the underpinnings for most of natural science. I'm not saying its impossible that I'm wrong, but if I am then God appears to be deceptive.

But that doesn't lead me to the conclusion that such a man must be unsaved.

:thumb:

I think you're going to need a bit more than an argument from silence against the weight of spoken opposition to your ideas.

Sounds like a popularity or "my argument sounds better" from the other side.

We are just as capable of reading the original text as you are. Genesis 1 (along with numerous other passages) actually says, "Six days" in every language. Cultural biases might be a factor when ordering a haircut, but this written word is impossible to get wrong.

Its not the numbers themselves that are a problem, its doe the numbers represent an ordered list. Were they originally intended to be a scientific treatise on HOW God created the universe, or was the primary message something else?

Exodus doesn't say God lay down. Why should we listen to your ranting about other languages and biases when you can't even read simple English?

It says "God rested" how literally are you willing to take it?

The vault is not in the sky.

Read the verse again Stripey, it IS the sky. It separate It's between water.

That's the thing that broke and made the fountains. You need to get the physics of what you're talking about consistent before you start mocking it.

Wrong again. Perhaps you forgot our previous conversation where you were forced to recant your "vault is on the ground" ideas? The vault is the sky, its a hard dome - which is obvious from the Hebrew word used. I am not in any way intending to mock the passage. What's described is perfectly logical, if you have only your naked eyes to look at the sky and earth. There's nothing bad about thinking the earth is organized that way. Its only if you take a western, empirical worldview does this suddenly become worthy of mockery.

Which is no evidence for your side and no evidence against ours. So let's stick to the science if that's your game. :up:

Sure it is. If you look at the text itself and compare it to contemporary documents you can see entirely different layers of meaning.

alwight · Apr 11, 2010

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
I'm not sure anyone understands why I keep quoting Hebrews 11:3
Either that, or I'm not sure anyone understands what it means to have faith.

Your blind faith in your particular magic book perhaps and a strong ability to deny reality seems the more likely to me.

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
Faith is the evidence of someone that is in Christ. It doesn't mean we have to understand everything, it's just that we believe Him above everything.

Very sage I’m sure.
What value is there in knowledge and enlightenment from reality when it may only contradict your presupposition and blind faith? :doh:
Your Morton’s Demon will no doubt look after you here.

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Morton's_demon

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
Noah did not seek the wisdom of men as to whether or not it could rain enough to flood the world. He believed God. Abraham had no evidence that a man could rise from the dead, yet he raised the knife believing God.

Both seem to be biblical just-so stories and myths for the credulous to have faith in to me. Not anything based in fact and intelligent reasoning. But your blind faith tells you that these myths are sensible to believe as fact while more obvious facts from reality can be just hand waved away apparently.

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
Faith comes from hearing. Faith is something you receive when you believe God. By faith Noah..., by faith David... and so on. When men say that the world was created some other way and in some other time frame than what is stated by God, it reveals that they are not in the faith. They may not understand it, but they believe God apart from what they perceive as evidence to the contrary.

This is also known as delusion and blind faith.

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
Hebrews 11:3 is not saying that we believe that the world was prepared by the word of God, or that we believe that the things which see were made from what is not visible. Rather, because we have faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. Big difference. Again, faith is the evidence.

I suppose you are very proud of your ability to adhere blindly to your doctrine and dogma.
I just wonder where your faith would be based now if you had been raised in a quite different religious culture? :think:

Oh no... it's Sozo · Apr 11, 2010

Alate_One said:
Its not a "little bit" of science, its pretty well the underpinnings for most of natural science. I'm not saying its impossible that I'm wrong, but if I am then God appears to be deceptive.

No, you are deceived by the fact that you do not believe God. Romans 1:25

It says "God rested" how literally are you willing to take it?

He was no longer creating.

Flipper · Apr 11, 2010

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
Based on what the Bible teaches, it's not "hard", it's impossible.

Talkng to OEC's about the things of God is pointless. They have zero understanding of what it means to be a Christian or what it means to have faith. They don't get it at all. In their defense, it appears that neither do most YEC's. My last posts went over the head of both. :sigh:

I'm a non-believer and I also have no idea what you're trying to say here. Maybe you could explain it again?

Oh no... it's Sozo · Apr 11, 2010

Flipper said:
I'm a non-believer and I also have no idea what you're trying to say here. Maybe you could explain it again?

Faith is the evidence. Do you know what faith is? Do you know how faith comes?

alwight · Apr 11, 2010

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
Faith is the evidence. Do you know what faith is? Do you know how faith comes?

With delusion?

Oh no... it's Sozo · Apr 11, 2010

alwight said:
With delusion?

No, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the message of Christ. This is something that you cannot do, because your ears are filled with feces, since your head is firmly entrenched in your anal cavity.

alwight · Apr 11, 2010

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
No, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the message of Christ. This is something that you cannot do, because your ears are filled with feces, since your head is firmly entrenched in your anal cavity.

Sorry Sozo but your assertion of where my head is, is actually as unreliable as all the rest of your unsubstantiated utterances and gibberish.

The Barbarian · Apr 11, 2010

But I got a negative rep from Sozo in his latest um, account, so I'm one step closer to my complete set of morons.

alwight · Apr 11, 2010

The Barbarian said:
But I got a negative rep from Sozo in his latest um, account, so I'm one step closer to my complete set of morons.

I think he ran away when I was getting interested.

Persephone66 · Apr 11, 2010

Stripe said:
Christianity is centered around Christ, hence the name. He is the be all and end all. The age of the earth is a bit of a side issue, but people's response to the question posed is a fairly good indicator of how seriously they take their faith.

So then one would have to ignore proven science and documented history.

Why not focus on what your religion is centered around instead of the side issues?

You are so very welcome. Gay-boy.

Actually I'm bisexual.

No. You prefer to be a pervert and destroy yourself instead. :vomit:

And just how am I destroying myself?

Persephone66 · Apr 11, 2010

Oh no... it's Sozo said:
You state that there was a "Big Bang", therefore calling God a liar, who says that the earth was created before the sun, moon, and stars, thus making YOU the liar.

Again, you prove you have no faith. Hebrews 11:3 is quite clear. Exodus 20:11 is believed by those in the faith. Those in the faith first believe God, not man. They do not attempt to recreate what the Bible says, to line up with science. Those who do, make science their god, which is what you worship, and not God. God made matter out of nothing. Nothing means nothing. God created those thing that make up matter, and He did it in 6 days. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" is a statement of fact. An introduction of the glory of God. There is no "gap" and there is no "Big Bang". The foundation of the Gospel message rests on the truth presented in the creation account, and man's disobedience when death entered the world. There are no fossils older than around 6,000 years. The crux of the Gospel is laid out in Romans 5. Unless it is a literal account of His-story, then the rest of the Bible is worthless.

It is your faith in science that is worthless.

Actually there are plenty of fossils that are over 6000 years old. There's also human history that is older than 6000 years.

Stripe · Apr 12, 2010

Alate_One said:
Its not a "little bit" of science, its pretty well the underpinnings for most of natural science.

No. .. it's the underpinning of a worldview dedicated to rejecting God.

I'm not saying its impossible that I'm wrong, but if I am then God appears to be deceptive.

Or maybe you're wrong and you're wrong. God did do what He said He did and it is perfectly obvious without the baggage of an atheist's education.

Sounds like a popularity or "my argument sounds better" from the other side.

I think there's a whole lot of projection going on with this one. When the bible says a number of times that God made the universe in six days it is perfectly reasonable to use that fact as evidence for an idea. If I claim that lots of people disagree with "six days" that is no evidence for an opposing idea.

The bible says clearly and unambiguously a number of times that God created the universe in six days. You say otherwise. You deny the clear teaching of the bible in favour of your ideas on how creation came about.

That's your cue to cite how popular your idea is as if that is some more evidence for your side.

Its not the numbers themselves that are a problem, its doe the numbers represent an ordered list. Were they originally intended to be a scientific treatise on HOW God created the universe, or was the primary message something else?

"In six days God created the heavens and the earth". No ordinals, no cardinals, just plain old clear, undeniable meaning.

It says "God rested" how literally are you willing to take it?

God was creating. God stopped creating. How much more do you want to embellish it?

Read the verse again Stripey, it IS the sky. It separate It's between water.

Read your combination of verses again. Fountains don't erupt upward from the sky. Either you're conflating two different things or you're deliberately trying to confuse people.

Wrong again. Perhaps you forgot our previous conversation where you were forced to recant your "vault is on the ground" ideas?

No, not at all. I didn't recant those ideas. You're going to have to pay a bit more attention to what people say.

Sure it is. If you look at the text itself and compare it to contemporary documents you can see entirely different layers of meaning.

So it's evidence because you think you have meaning from the layers.

Great.

lain:

Persephone66 said:
So then one would have to ignore proven science and documented history.

There you go again showing your ignorance of how science (and now history) works.

Why not focus on what your religion is centered around instead of the side issues?

I'm sure you'd not care as to my reasons for explaining such things. So why don't we just let me say what I will and you say as you will. :thumb:

Actually I'm bisexual.

Animals are the next logical step.

And just how am I destroying myself?

How am I belittling myself?

Persephone66 · Apr 12, 2010

Stripe said:
There you go again showing your ignorance of how science (and now history) works.

I am? Care to explain how it is that I am the one that is ignorant here?

I'm sure you'd not care as to my reasons for explaining such things. So why don't we just let me say what I will and you say as you will. :thumb:

So leave you to your delusions?

Animals are the next logical step.

Wasn't aware of that. So what's the next step after that? Corpses?

Just out of curiosity, where do plushophiliacs fit into this order?

How am I belittling myself?

With your own ignorance. You have no idea how foolish you are making yourself look.

Delmar · Apr 12, 2010

Persephone66 said:
And just how am I destroying myself?

Aside from the whole burning Hell for eternity thing? :think:

Persephone66 · Apr 12, 2010

Delmar said:
Aside from the whole burning Hell for eternity thing? :think:

I mean in the real world, not in the Land of Make Believe.

alwight · Apr 12, 2010

Persephone66 said:
Delmar said:

Aside from the whole burning Hell for eternity thing? :think:

Click to expand...

I mean in the real world, not in the Land of Make Believe.

Even in their world of make-believe what would you have left to suffer with after being destroyed, it's just not thought through or logical.

toldailytopic: How old is the earth?

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