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Thread: Calvinism vs Scriptural Libertarian Free Will (LFW)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    1 Cor.4:[ **3** ](https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/4-3.htm)But to me, it is the smallest matter that I be examined by you or by a human court. In fact, neither do I examine myself. [ **4** ](https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/4-4.htm)For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I have not been justified by this; but the *One* judging me is *the* Lord.

    5 Therefore do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord shall have come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the motives of the hearts; and then the praise will come to each from God.

    Mt.7:1Do not judge, lest you should be judged. 2For with that verdict you pronounce, you will be judged; and with that measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

    3And why do you look at the splinter in your brother’s eye, but not notice the beam in your own eye? 4Or how shall you say to your brother, ‘Permit that I might cast out the splinter from your eye,’ and behold, the beam is in your eye? 5Hypocrite! First cast out the beam from your eye, and then you will see clearly to cast out the splinter from the eye of your brother.
    A great example of your prooftexting scripture to manipulate, Greg. It's a not so subtle pride you are displaying.

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    If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a "god", then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that "god" would be unjust & make that "god" a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists' actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a "god" would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy "god" except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a "god", then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that "god" would be unjust & make that "god" a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists' actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a "god" would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy "god" except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?
    The Bible says they are slaves to sin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The Bible says they are slaves to sin.
    What makes you think that is relevant to my post? Or that your interpretation of it is infallible? Or that freedom from slavery comes without libertarian free will (LFW) cooperation? John 7:17:

    New International Version
    Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

    Berean Literal Bible
    If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself.

    New American Standard Bible
    "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

    King James Bible
    If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    What makes you think that is relevant to my post? Or that your interpretation of it is infallible? Or that freedom from slavery comes without libertarian free will (LFW) cooperation? John 7:17:

    New International Version
    Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

    Berean Literal Bible
    If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself.

    New American Standard Bible
    "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

    King James Bible
    If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
    Greg, please cease with the prooftexting out of context. You twist the Bible to create a false narrative. It is disappointing to say the least.

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    If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin.
    Slaves to sin.

    17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Slaves to sin.

    17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
    Ah, so your claim, according to your understanding of that verse, is that we are now "slaves of righteousness"? You're willing to stretch that verse that far, are you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Greg, please cease with the prooftexting out of context. You twist the Bible to create a false narrative. It is disappointing to say the least.
    You just did.....

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    It is undeniable that humans make choices. The Old Testament has multitudes of texts that show humans making choices.

    "But the ability to freely make decisions commensurate with the limits of one’s nature and with the opportunities provided for such decision making is logically part of God’s and man’s nature and experience."

    Choices are 'freely made decisions'.

    Choices are made exclusively 'commensurate with the limits of one’s nature'

    Both God and humans have opportunities to make such choices.

    What are the limits of God's nature?

    What are the limits of human nature?

    The LFW controversy stands or falls on the answers given to these two questions.

    Fallen, that is sinful, human nature is limited to making sinful choices.

    Fallen human nature is 'unspiritual' and 'a slave to sin'(Rom7:14;8:5-8).

    Human choices are limited to sinful decisions!

    LFW is in opposition to the truth of scripture.
    Last edited by BoyStan; November 9th, 2018 at 10:31 PM.

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