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Thread: Calvinism vs Scriptural Libertarian Free Will (LFW)

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    Calvinism vs Scriptural Libertarian Free Will (LFW)

    He who sins is responsible for his own sin.
    Only if sinners have libertarian freewill (LFW). Any Christian theology (e.g. Calvinism) that rejects LFW leads to these conclusions:

    1. We are all puppets in God's puppet show.
    2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
    3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
    4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.

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    "5 ARGUMENTS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF FREE WILL":

    https://crossexamined.org/5-argument...nce-free-will/

    "What is the biblical basis for free will?":

    https://christianity.stackexchange.c...-for-free-will

    "freewill as taught in scripture":

    https://soteriology101.com/2017/07/2...-in-scripture/

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    If a man is drawn into sin, then he was drawn by his own fallen heart. Though God had ordered all the details which might cause him to fall, he fell by the enticement of his covetous heart.
    If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a "god", then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that "god" would be unjust & make that "god" a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists' actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a "god" would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy "god" except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Only if sinners have libertarian freewill (LFW). Any Christian theology (e.g. Calvinism) that rejects LFW leads to these conclusions:

    1. We are all puppets in God's puppet show.
    2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
    3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
    4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.
    Scoffing and Blaspheming God !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Let's just say...Augustinian faith vs Pelagian heresy. It's really the same debate that Augustine won, which lead to Pelagius being rightfully declared a heretic.
    Greg is merely rehashing and desperately wishing that Pelagius was correct.
    https://www.monergism.com/augustine-and-pelagius

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Only if sinners have libertarian freewill (LFW). Any Christian theology (e.g. Calvinism) that rejects LFW leads to these conclusions:

    1. We are all puppets in God's puppet show.
    2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
    3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
    4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.
    Statistically speaking, if man has the free will you assert, what are the chances of the entire human history passing by without anyone (save Christ) being sinless his entire life? So when Paul makes the statement that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, how does he make that statement? How can he make that claim for the (at least) 2000 years of people that (then) had yet to be born? It makes perfect sense if man is - by nature - a sinner and not called a sinner simply because he happens to sin. The statement of man being a sinner goes to the nature, not just the act. And what of having an understanding of what is right and what is wrong and doing wrong anyway? If we take the mass of human history and look at man's sinfulness in combination with his recognition of right and wrong, doesn't that overwhelmingly tend to support the contention that man is naturally a sinner? Naturally alienated from God? And doesn't that also mean we can read Jeremiah 17:9 as a universal (natural) state?

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    My conclusion is that man does not have libertarian free will, but that his will is governed by his nature. And if anyone thinks man's nature is (naturally, if you will) either good or neutral, then they have to go through Romans 3:23 (and Romans 5:12) first.

    Man knows right and wrong and has chosen with his nature. The animals, on the other hand, only do what they were made to do and have no knowledge of right and wrong.
    Last edited by nikolai_42; November 4th, 2018 at 06:37 PM. Reason: added clarifying phrase
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a "god", then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that "god" would be unjust & make that "god" a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists' actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a "god" would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy "god" except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?
    Practically speaking, man may have the capacity to resist the temptation to indulge his lusts, but both the heart out of which those things spring and the conscience that says "That's wrong" are present in every individual. Covetousness is just as much a sin as indulging that covetousness. Resisting the urge to indulge it may be resisting one sin, but it doesn't change the heart. So because our heart makes us (so to speak) covet, does that mean we shouldn't be held accountable?
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    "2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
    3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
    4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist."

    These sounds like excuses for doing wrong not to get in trouble. It's like saying, "I hit him because my brother did. It's in my genes so not my fault."

    It's like uhh no it's a lame excuse is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    My conclusion is that man does not have libertarian free will, but that his will is governed by his nature.
    Just because humans are conceived or born imperfect, or with a sinful nature, or some such thing that guarantees they will eventually sin if they don't die first, it does not follow they do not have libertarian free will.

    If man's will is governed by his fallen nature, then how will it ever be set free to obey the truth? Man's will is under bondage to sin until God Sovereignly enlightens him & graces him with the grace to either resist (by libertarian free will) the truth offered or accept/receive/obey it. Otherwise man is just a puppet of God & God is responsible for man's sins & bondage to sin, not man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    Practically speaking, man may have the capacity to resist the temptation to indulge his lusts, but both the heart out of which those things spring and the conscience that says "That's wrong" are present in every individual. Covetousness is just as much a sin as indulging that covetousness. Resisting the urge to indulge it may be resisting one sin, but it doesn't change the heart. So because our heart makes us (so to speak) covet, does that mean we shouldn't be held accountable?
    Are you a Calvinist? A believer in double predestination? How does any of your comment address what i posted:

    If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a "god", then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that "god" would be unjust & make that "god" a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists' actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a "god" would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy "god" except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    A believer in double predestination?
    Depends upon what one means when the phrase is being tossed about:

    http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePre...on_Sproul.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Depends upon what one means when the phrase is being tossed about:

    http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePre...on_Sproul.html

    AMR
    Is it possible to summarize that article in a sentence or two?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Just because humans are conceived or born imperfect, or with a sinful nature, or some such thing that guarantees they will eventually sin if they don't die first, it does not follow they do not have libertarian free will.
    Actually, if I understand the term (LFW) correctly, that's exactly what it means. Libertarian free will means a man is free to act against his nature and God's predetermination. LFW is essentially a crapshoot to see how this black box (free will) is going to decide at any given time. There are no rules or guidelines as to how a man will choose. It could be anything at any time.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    If man's will is governed by his fallen nature, then how will it ever be set free to obey the truth? Man's will is under bondage to sin until God Sovereignly enlightens him & graces him with the grace to either resist (by libertarian free will) the truth offered or accept/receive/obey it. Otherwise man is just a puppet of God & God is responsible for man's sins & bondage to sin, not man.
    Taking this line of thought to a logical extent - if God created everything, then everything is ultimately on God, right? At the "rubber meets road" perspective (i.e. from our point of view) your first sentence is the question that is answered by the gospel. Man is a puppet of sorts - a slave to sin. Ultimately, I think, the whole concept of LFW tends to the anarchical because every man ultimately serves something and/or someone. The question is not if he is free to (dis)obey, but who (or what) is it that he is obeying? LFW essentially replaces that "Master" with "(nothing)".
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Are you a Calvinist? A believer in double predestination? How does any of your comment address what i posted:

    If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a "god", then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that "god" would be unjust & make that "god" a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists' actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a "god" would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy "god" except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?
    I was trying to make it practical. Everyone reading can associate with what a lust is. A strong desire. You and I may have a choice what to have for breakfast - and we make that choice very casually because there isn't much (that we know of) that rests on that decision. But it is ultimately informed by things very much deeper than the superficial whims that (in my view) pass for the evidence of a supposedly free will. Things get a little more clear when dealing with emotionalism in church as it applies to salvation. People have been "saved" multiple times by emotional please and the church has suffered as a result. That's (in part) because the appeal was not going to the core of man but to his emotions. They are easily moved (as one might expect) and manipulated. And while emotion in worship is not of itself wrong, if you get it prioritized incorrectly, you have a serious situation. Taken to its extent, you have people who essentially worship emotion. All is emotion. All is driven by emotion and so they are following their own desires. Paul, I believe, says those people worship their own belly (Philippians 3:19). Emotions that follow faith are an entirely different matter (just as works that follow faith are entirely different than faith that follows works).

    And to reiterate my previous response, are you saying that if we don't have a will that is untethered to anything, that this makes God responsible for all sin?
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panda View Post
    "2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
    3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
    4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist."

    These sounds like excuses for doing wrong not to get in trouble. It's like saying, "I hit him because my brother did. It's in my genes so not my fault."

    It's like uhh no it's a lame excuse is what it is.
    It should be noted that those tenets are not (so far as I am aware) all held by Calvinists at large.
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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