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Thread: ACTS 2 PENTECOST

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    The Church is the body of Christ. The Kingdom has not been postponed or interrupted, but Christ will return soon to establish this Kingdom and Jesus will sit upon the Throne of David, and both Jewish and Gentile believers will rule with Christ for the 1000 years over the nations Isaiah 2:1-5.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    I'm sorry but this confused me. You say it wasn't postponed but then say Jesus will return soon and establish this kingdom. Could you please explain?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Greetings turbosixx,
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I'm sorry but this confused me. You say it wasn't postponed but then say Jesus will return soon and establish this kingdom. Could you please explain?
    I am not sure what you have a problem with here. Jesus knew from the prophets that at his first coming he would suffer, and be crucified and die, and then be resurrected and ascend to sit at the right hand of God, his Father.
    Luke 24:25-27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    He also knew that the prophets teach that the Kingdom would be established at his return:
    Psalm 110:1-2 (KJV): 1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
    Daniel 2:35,44 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


    Many other references could be added that detail the sufferings of Christ and the details concerning the coming Kingdom. As far as the near return of Jesus, one of the greatest evidences is the return of the Jews to their land, and this is not only prophesied, but many of the prophecies indicate that they are recently returned when the events surrounding the Kingdom occur, for example Ezekiel 38:8,11-12. There are other prophecies such as Zechariah 12:1-3 and Zechariah 14:2 which indicate that part of the controversy will be centred in Jerusalem. The spotlight has been recently focused on Jerusalem, with the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. There are many other indications that the return of Jesus is near, based on the prophecies and teachings of the Bible.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings turbosixx, I am not sure what you have a problem with here. Jesus knew from the prophets that at his first coming he would suffer, and be crucified and die, and then be resurrected and ascend to sit at the right hand of God, his Father.
    Luke 24:25-27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
    Thanks for the reply Trevor. Yes, Jesus spoke of his D,B&R and how it was prophesied. His death would not stop his kingdom from being established. In fact, that is what it is founded on. Jesus said many times that the kingdom was at hand and described what it is like or can be compared to. When you read those passages, do you see an earthly kingdom or the church? I see the church. I suggest they are one and the same. Please consider these passages.
    Matt. 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
    Here before His D,B&R, Jesus is looking forward to his church being built and giving Peter the keys of the kingdom.
    In Acts 2 we see that the church was built and Peter using those keys and letting 3,000 souls in, Acts 2:41.
    Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
    Paul says we have been transferred to the kingdom.


    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    He also knew that the prophets teach that the Kingdom would be established at his return:
    I suggest these are OT prophecies looking to his first appearance.


    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Psalm 110:1-2 (KJV): 1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
    Peter mentions this verse in his sermon on Pentecost the day the church was established.
    Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
    “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
    “Sit at my right hand,
    35 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

    It's my understanding that by Peter quoting this verse he is saying this is what that verse was looking forward to. Also, this verse is a reference to Jesus ascending not descending.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Daniel 2:35,44 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    In the days of those kings. What kingdom do you understand him to be speaking of? I suggest it's the Roman empire and that is exactly when Jesus appeared proclaiming the kingdom was at hand.
    Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
    If the kingdom wasn't established on Pentecost, wouldn't that make Jesus a false prophet?

    After Jesus's D,B&R, the kingdom is not spoken of as still in the future.
    Acts 8:12 Acts 28:23 Col. 1:13 2 Thes. 1:5

    Hope that makes some sense.
    Last edited by turbosixx; November 8th, 2018 at 05:50 AM.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Ephesians 3:2
    Paul here is stating a new dispensation.

    Acts, as a whole, is presenting the diminishing of Israel and God turning to the Gentiles. It is a new dispensation of Grace where there is no longer Jew and Gentile.
    God in the future will bring Israel thru the tribulation and the new covenant will restore them.
    They will rule and reign with him in the Kingdom on earth and be a light to the Gentile nations til the new heavens and earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Before His death, Jesus said the kingdom was at hand and preached many times about it. Could please point out one of those passages that describes the kingdom on earth you believe was postponed? What I see Him describing is the church.
    Mat 25:31-34 KJV When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    That is yet future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Greetings turbosixx,
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    In the days of those kings. What kingdom do you understand him to be speaking of? I suggest it's the Roman empire and that is exactly when Jesus appeared proclaiming the kingdom was at hand.
    The Kingdom is to be established when the Roman Empire is spoken of as iron mixed with clay, but Jesus died at the period when the Roman Empire was at its greatest, and depicted by the iron.
    After Jesus's D,B&R, the kingdom is not spoken of as still in the future. Acts 8:12 Acts 28:23 Col. 1:13 2 Thes. 1:5
    2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
    Do you believe that Jesus will return?

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Mat 25:31-34 KJV When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    That is yet future.
    I agree. I believe it's the final judgment.

    Matt. 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings turbosixx, The Kingdom is to be established when the Roman Empire is spoken of as iron mixed with clay, but Jesus died at the period when the Roman Empire was at its greatest, and depicted by the iron.
    Greetings.
    The Roman empire has fallen and there have been more since then.

    In your understanding, was the church planned or plan B?


    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
    Do you believe that Jesus will return?

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    I do believe Jesus will return.
    1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
    And then the judgment.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Greetings again turbosixx,
    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    The Roman empire has fallen and there have been more since then.
    Yes, to use Gibbonís title, The Roman Empire has Declined and Fallen. But Daniel 2 depicts the feet and toes of iron and clay as a progression from the legs of iron, and then the stone hits the image on these feet of iron and clay, and replaces the Kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God. This may have started in some sense at Pentecost, but the real change will come at Christís return, and there will be in effect a direct confrontation until the Kingdoms of men are completely replaced by the Kingdom of God. Christ is our Lord, Ruler, Master now and is the embodiment of the Kingdom. The believer is a potential citizen, but the Kingdom is a term that is also used of what will be established when Jesus returns.

    Our relationship with Daniel 2:44 is mentioned here by Jesus:
    Matthew 21:42-44 (KJV): 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lordís doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    In your understanding, was the church planned or plan B?
    Godís purpose and plan was known to Him before the Creation.
    I do believe Jesus will return. And then the judgment.
    Thatís good, we agree on this. These two elements are in the verses I quoted, and it also says that at that time Jesus will establish the Kingdom:
    2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Our relationship with Daniel 2:44 is mentioned here by Jesus:
    Matthew 21:42-44 (KJV): 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    Looking at that passage. When did/will the builders reject the stone?

    What is meant by "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof "? When has/will this happen?


    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    God’s purpose and plan was known to Him before the Creation.
    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Two questions from this. If God planned for the church, where do you see it prophesied in the OT? God knows the plan, why did Jesus proclaim the kingdom was at hand if it wasn't to be for going on 2,000 years now?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I agree. I believe it's the final judgment.

    Matt. 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    Not the final judgement but the judgement of the nations when Christ returns to reign from the throne of David.
    These nations will be judged according to how they treated Christ's kinsmen[Israelites] during Daniel's 70th week... the tribulation. This judgment is the same as described in Joel 3 and takes place in the Kiddron valley...the valley of Jehosaphat[Jehovah judges].

    The final judgement[white throne] is a thousand years later.

    The leadership of the Kingdom to Israel was taken away from the 1st century Priests, Scribes and Pharisees and was given to the nascent Little Flock which was to grow into the believing remnant which would then constitute the renewed nation of Israel according to prophecy.

    Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    Not the final judgement but the judgement of the nations when Christ returns to reign from the throne of David.
    These nations will be judged according to how they treated Christ's kinsmen[Israelites] during Daniel's 70th week... the tribulation. This judgment is the same as described in Joel 3 and takes place in the Kiddron valley...the valley of Jehosaphat[Jehovah judges.

    The final judgement[white throne] is a thousand years later.
    So you're saying there's two judgments where souls are sent to their eternal destinations?

    The end of Joel 2 happened on Pentecost and the beginning of 3 says in those days and at that time.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    The leadership of the Kingdom to Israel was taken away from the 1st century Priests, Scribes and Pharisees and was given to the nascent Little Flock which was to grow into the believing remnant which would then constitute the renewed nation of Israel according to prophecy.
    What do you understand the believing remnant to be? It's my understanding that believers are Christians and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek but one new man.

    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
    This is before Jesus's D,B&R. After His sacrifice we do not see the kingdom spoken as still future.
    Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
    How could there be good new about the kingdom?

    Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
    What was Paul testifying about the kingdom of God?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    So you're saying there's two judgments where souls are sent to their eternal destinations?

    The end of Joel 2 happened on Pentecost and the beginning of 3 says in those days and at that time.
    There are several 'judgements' in Scripture. My sins were judged at the cross two-thousand years ago, but that was not the final white throne judgement of the dead according to their works.

    Whether the goats go directly to the lake of fire at that instant or whether they are held in Hades until the white throne and then cast into the lake of fire, I can't be certain, but the Lord can do it any time He sees fit.

    The beginning of the ending of Joel began to happen at Pentecost. It was not completed. It is yet to be completed at the Lord's second coming to earth.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    There are several 'judgements' in Scripture. My sins were judged at the cross two-thousand years ago, but that was not the final white throne judgement of the dead according to their works.

    Whether the goats go directly to the lake of fire at that instant or whether they are held in Hades until the white throne and then cast into the lake of fire, I can't be certain, but the Lord can do it any time He sees fit.

    The beginning of the ending of Joel began to happen at Pentecost. It was not completed. It is yet to be completed at the Lord's second coming to earth.
    What is your understanding of the second coming? If I understand correctly, the kingdom is for the Jews. Do you think that will include Christians or only Christians?
    Wretched man that I am.

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