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Thread: Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Okay, let's just break this down to basics again. Adam transgresses and because of that all of mankind from that point forward is cursed or subject to condemnation, from then until the present day and beyond. If Adam hadn't messed up in the garden then nobody would be under such a sentence and all would be pretty much rosy?

    Anyway, he didn't and as a result then God decides not to abandon everyone to such a fate but chooses some to be spared from it and others to be condemned to it aka "vessels of wrath" or some such. Therefore, those who are chosen can't help but make the "moral choice" because of God's intervention and those not chosen can't do anything other than not make the same because of God's lack of intervention. There's no choice in any of it. You can wrap it up in all sorts of verbiage but in essence this is the crux of the Calvinist view isn't it?

    Pretty much a roll of a dice as you could so easily be one who wasn't granted the "quickening" as no one is more or less deserving of being the elect after Adam's transgression, correct? Yet you and the rest of the chosen are spared the suffering that is deemed righteous to the ones who aren't.
    Is God obligated to care about humans who are by nature in rebellion to His Sovereign rule?
    Is He obligated? If so...why? If not...why?

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Is God obligated to care about humans who are by nature in rebellion to His Sovereign rule?
    Is He obligated? If so...why? If not...why?
    Somehow, I think you'd be singing a different tune if you were the one on the cusp of such torment as you glibly prescribe for others who don't inform the "elect". Do you think your posts reflect the Biblical definition of love? You're no more deserving or worthy of being spared such are you?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Somehow, I think you'd be singing a different tune if you were the one on the cusp of such torment as you glibly prescribe for others who don't inform the "elect". Do you think your posts reflect the Biblical definition of love? You're no more deserving or worthy of being spared such are you?
    Answer my question please.
    Is God obligated to care about humans who are by nature in rebellion to His Sovereign rule?

    Is He obligated? If so...why? If not...why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Mercy is getting what you do not deserve.
    Like when a man who has never committed a crime is convicted of the crime of, say, burglary, and sentenced to prison. He didn't commit the crime, he doesn't deserve the time, but he gets the time. That's what you call "mercy", really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Idol, you, yourself made the claim that you were duping your congregation
    You go right ahead and show us all where I said anything like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    , which does not hold your theology.
    You don't even know that.
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You have been fairly called out by your own admission.
    False. Supra.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Answer my question please.
    Is God obligated to care about humans who are by nature in rebellion to His Sovereign rule?

    Is He obligated? If so...why? If not...why?
    If He really is a God of love then obligation wouldn't even come into it, else is He obliged to spare you?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    If He really is a God of love then obligation wouldn't even come into it, else is He obliged to spare you?
    You didn't answer my question. Please try again.

    Is God obligated to care about humans who are by nature in rebellion to His Sovereign rule?

    Is He obligated? If so...why? If not...why?

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    Art, do you love ISIS? Do you invite them into your home and bid them eat at your table with all their weapons in hand while you tell them why they need you?
    Are you obligated to love ISIS exactly as they are, with no expectations that they will change?
    Are you a man of love, Art? Go to ISIS and prove it to us. Or...are you not obligated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Do you often speak in double negatives?
    What, if anything, do you mean by the phrase "double negatives"? Do you mean something like what Ask Mr. Religion wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    ...man's moral inability for all in Adam. They cannot not sin.
    where he said "they cannot not sin"?

    Forgive me, but I do not follow you. Can you please try to explain what (if anything) you were trying to say?

    Here is the sentence I wrote, which you quoted, typing the phrase, "double negatives":

    Are you trying to imply, here, that the proposition (which is about the extent of the atonement), 'Christ did not die for all mankind', is not a constituent proposition of the gospel?
    Are you saying that there is something I wrote, therein, to which you are, for some reason,trying to relate your phrase, "double negative"? Indeed, the word 'not' is a word of negation, and, sleuth that you are, you noticed that I had written it twice--that is, doubly--in the sentence you have quoted. Is that why you used the phrase "double negative" in reaction to what I wrote in my post?

    I, personally, don't see anything, in the sentence which you quoted from my post, to which the phrase "double negative" could have any relevance. So, what (if anything) were you trying to say, exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    So, anyway, is that a NO? A YES? Be a good steward of your time by answering the question I asked you with a simple NO or YES. Be an even better steward of your time by simply giving the initial N or Y. See, you spent more time writing a three-paragraph post in reaction to my question--which post amounts to an admission that you can't answer it--than you would have spent simply not writing it at all.

    If, as a Calvinism huckster,
    If this is the way things will go, count me out. No one is obliged to meet your standards and tenor of discourse. Nor mine for that matter. You have been answered and I will leave things at that. If you would rather not engage me then refrain from doing so. Instead why not just make it clear that you are content to use me as a foil to continue your rhetoric for the hoi polloi. I have no problem being personally held up to ridicule. That said, I suspect the purpose of this forum is not for mere caviling, but actual reasoned dialog concerning sacred matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    It is clear, now, that when the Holy Spirit regenerates a person--thereby (as per Calvinism) causing that person to believe the gospel--He, in that act of regenerating, does not cause the person to believe the non-gospel proposition, 'Christ did not die for all mankind'; otherwise, every person who believes the gospel must believe, also, that 'Christ did not die for all mankind'. It's just a special, extra, optional thing that a few elites (yourself being one) will somehow come to believe, on your own, later on after you've already believed the gospel.
    Regeneration does not result in complete understanding of all that Scripture teaches. Sanctification is the process by which one grows in their understanding in their walk of faith. Some will come to know more than others by their due diligence, gifts, capabilities, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Like when a man who has never committed a crime is convicted of the crime of, say, burglary, and sentenced to prison. He didn't commit the crime, he doesn't deserve the time, but he gets the time. That's what you call "mercy", really?
    If you are carefully reading me "mercy is getting what you do not deserve" implies righteous desserts. Accordingly, your example is a category error.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    If this is the way things will go, count me out. No one is obliged to meet your standards and tenor of discourse. Nor mine for that matter. You have been answered and I will leave things at that. If you would rather not engage me then refrain from doing so. Instead why not just make it clear that you are content to use me as a foil to continue your rhetoric for the hoi polloi. I have no problem being personally held up to ridicule. That said, I suspect the purpose of this forum is not for mere caviling, but actual reasoned dialog concerning sacred matters.



    Regeneration does not result in complete understanding of all that Scripture teaches. Sanctification is the process by which one grows in their understanding in their walk of faith. Some will come to know more than others by their due diligence, gifts, capabilities, etc.


    If you are carefully reading me "mercy is getting what you do not deserve" implies righteous desserts. Accordingly, your example is a category error.

    AMR
    Perhaps you missed it:

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    That's grace, not mercy.

    Mercy is NOT getting what one DOES deserve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You didn't answer my question. Please try again.

    Is God obligated to care about humans who are by nature in rebellion to His Sovereign rule?

    Is He obligated? If so...why? If not...why?
    I did answer it, you just didn't like the answer or didn't understand it. An all powerful God can obviously do whatever He wants but if He's a loving one then the notion that He sets things up where some folk are chosen to be spared and others to rot then that's anathema.

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Art, do you love ISIS? Do you invite them into your home and bid them eat at your table with all their weapons in hand while you tell them why they need you?
    Are you obligated to love ISIS exactly as they are, with no expectations that they will change?
    Are you a man of love, Art? Go to ISIS and prove it to us. Or...are you not obligated?
    Silly analogy. I don't love ISIS or any form of terrorism so no, of course I'm not going to invite terrorists into my home so they can cut my head off or some such and no, I am not obligated.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    I did answer it, you just didn't like the answer or didn't understand it. An all powerful God can obviously do whatever He wants but if He's a loving one then the notion that He sets things up where some folk are chosen to be spared and others to rot then that's anathema.



    Silly analogy. I don't love ISIS or any form of terrorism so no, of course I'm not going to invite terrorists into my home so they can cut my head off or some such and no, I am not obligated.
    So... you're not a loving human. You don't love rebels like ISIS.
    Does this mean God is not a loving God since He doesn't love rebel humans?
    Make no mistake, you and I are, by nature, in rebellion against God. We are like ISIS. You are no different than ISIS before God.
    Is God obligated to do anything for you? If God chose to do something for you, but not for me, would it make God unloving?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    I did answer it, you just didn't like the answer or didn't understand it. An all powerful God can obviously do whatever He wants but if He's a loving one then the notion that He sets things up where some folk are chosen to be spared and others to rot then that's anathema.
    If you would like to believe that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, then Clavinism cannot stop you from doing that. The Clavinists want to argue that if you hear the Gospel, and do not believe it, then it is because you are rotten to the core and would never want to believe it on your own. To Clavinists, it requires a miracle for you to want to believe the Gospel in the first place.

    And so what. It doesn't change that if you want to believe in Christ's Resurrection, that there's nothing stopping you from doing so.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    So... you're not a loving human. You don't love rebels like ISIS.
    Does this mean God is not a loving God since He doesn't love rebel humans?
    Make no mistake, you and I are, by nature, in rebellion against God. We are like ISIS. You are no different than ISIS before God.
    Is God obligated to do anything for you? If God chose to do something for you, but not for me, would it make God unloving?
    I don't love terrorism full stop and you can consider humanity to be akin to ISIS as a whole as much as you will, it won't hold sway with me. It's hyper zealous beliefs and brainwashing where such insidious and callous disregard toward life originate and precious little to do with a loving God. In regards to your latter, it would hardly be equitable and if you were one consigned to rot and I wasn't then frankly, I don't see anything loving, fair or just about that. Luck of the draw is all it would be and at odds with the Biblical definition of love.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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