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Thread: Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The love God shows to men as men is as effectual as the love He shows the elect. It is simply that God does not purpose to express His love in a saving way to all men.
    So, he purposes to express His love for the non-elect in a damning way toward them, and in an unmitigated, agonizing, endless fiery torment way toward them? With love for the non-elect like that, what's the use of hate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    It has somehow become an argument for anti-Calvinists to reason thusly: "How can I spread the Gospel if I can't tell a man that Jesus loves you and died for you?"
    Being a Calvinist, could you say, about yourself, that Jesus loves you and died for you?

    I imagine that, as a Calvinist, you consider yourself to be elect, and, in addition to that, that you consider some other persons to, also, be elect. I imagine that you consider yourself as having, or being in, fellowship with other elect individuals, whom you could specifically name. Now, could you, making eye contact with such an individual, state to them, "Jesus loves you and died for you"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The gospel includes His active and passive obedience for those He came to redeem. The extent of the atonement is an internecine discussion per se. The teachings of Scripture that Our Lord came to redeem those given to Him is related to the scope of the Gospel, not to the Gospel a se.
    Are you trying to imply, here, that the proposition (which is about the extent of the atonement), 'Christ did not die for all mankind', is not a constituent proposition of the gospel?

    Saying that "the extent of the atonement is an internecine discussion per se" has a bit of a "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" ring to it.

    If it is a constituent proposition of the gospel, then a person who has never believed that Christ did not die for all mankind has never believed the gospel, and, if a person who has never believed the gospel has never been saved, then a person who has never believed that Christ did not die for all mankind is a person who has never been saved. In that case, it seems to be something that ought not be swept under the rug by Calvinists as unnecessarily divisive, or as merely distracting from supposedly more important, or more sublime issues. The joke about Arminians being Calvinists-in-training tends to sweep discussion of the extent of the atonement under the rug, as though it is not a crucial dividing line between believers of the gospel and unbelievers thereof.

    If it is not a constituent proposition of the gospel, then a person who believes that Christ died for all mankind is necessarily, in so believing, not contradicting the gospel, and discussion about the extent of the atonement can just as well be relegated to a class of lesser, non-evangelical priorities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    God's glory is manifested in all His attributes. All God's attributes inhere one another. There are no attributes elevated above another. God is His attributes. God is jealous about all His attributes (Nah. 1:2; Ex. 20:4-6).

    How does God display His mercy unless there are the undeserving?
    How is God's glory in His holy wrath towards sin made manifest unless there are those that deserve His holy wrath?
    What God has revealed in Holy Writ is ours to know. When God shuts His mouth, so should we (Deut. 29:29).

    AMR
    Aren't you contradicting what you were saying with these words in yellow above?

    Where does "deserving" come in?

    Nor do I believe these are "secret things".
    These are things everyone has a right and a duty to know about God.

    Is He righteous? Yes.
    What more needs to be said?

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  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post

    What faith, exactly, are you declaring that some Arminians are not outside? Or, in other words, what faith are you declaring that some Arminians are inside?
    The faith all true believers hold dear is nicely packaged in Romans 3:216:23.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    So, he purposes to express His love for the non-elect in a damning way toward them, and in an unmitigated, agonizing, endless fiery torment way toward them? With love for the non-elect like that, what's the use of hate?
    Mercy is getting what you do not deserve. Justice is getting exactly what you deserve.

    One must start with the fall of Adam, our federal representative, made upright, yet mutable. Had he fulfilled his probationary period in the Covenant of Works, he and all his progeny would have enjoyed eternal life in bliss and glory with God. He did not, plunging all his progeny and creation into corruption. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners when we sin. Rather, we sin because we are born sinners and deserve nothing but God's justice. The thing that should amaze us and drive us to our knees is that God saves even one person from all born in Adam.

    If one has their doctrine concerning the dire effects of the fall of Adam aright, this makes perfect sense. If one does not, then all manner of error is bound to follow.

    God justly tells the reprobate:
    "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am also not going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

    God graciously tells the elect:
    "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

    After all, God need not intervene to bring about evil. We will do that all on our own. Good, however, does require intervention on God's part, for we are fallen and utterly sinful.

    AMR
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  9. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Being a Calvinist, could you say, about yourself, that Jesus loves you and died for you?
    It matters not whether I am a Calvinist or Baptist, etc. I can say this now that I am saved and assured of the same. Before that moment, over 50 years ago, I could not say this, for I certainly did not want it and hated God with every breath I drew.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    I imagine that, as a Calvinist, you consider yourself to be elect, and, in addition to that, that you consider some other persons to, also, be elect. I imagine that you consider yourself as having, or being in, fellowship with other elect individuals, whom you could specifically name. Now, could you, making eye contact with such an individual, state to them, "Jesus loves you and died for you"?
    All covenanted members of the church militant are presumed to be among the elect. This is right and proper to assume absent evidence to the contrary.

    If you have a point you are wanting to make, rather than "twenty-questions", or Whack-A-Mole, it would further the discussion to just make your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Mercy is getting what you do not deserve. Justice is getting exactly what you deserve.

    One must start with the fall of Adam, our federal representative, made upright, yet mutable. Had he fulfilled his probationary period in the Covenant of Works, he and all his progeny would have enjoyed eternal life in bliss and glory with God. He did not, plunging all his progeny and creation into corruption. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners when we sin. Rather, we sin because we are born sinners and deserve nothing but God's justice. The thing that should amaze us and drive us to our knees is that God saves even one person from all born in Adam.

    If one has their doctrine concerning the dire effects of the fall of Adam aright, this makes perfect sense. If one does not, then all manner of error is bound to follow.

    God justly tells the reprobate:
    "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am also not going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

    God graciously tells the elect:
    "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

    After all, God need not intervene to bring about evil. We will do that all on our own. Good, however, does require intervention on God's part, for we are fallen and utterly sinful.

    AMR
    So, if Adam had kept his stuff together and not "swayed away from the path of righteousness" then everyone would be okay and there wouldn't be any such thing as the "elect" or "reprobate"? There'd be no curse whereby some seemingly arbitrary system of people being selected for grace occurs? Also, your wording amounts to little other than semantics. If God is going to prevent the elect from making "the wrong choice" then choice is rendered moot anyway.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    So, he purposes to express His love for the non-elect in a damning way toward them, and in an unmitigated, agonizing, endless fiery torment way toward them? With love for the non-elect like that, what's the use of hate?
    Well, there isn't any use for it. Hardly ties in with the Biblical definition of love either.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Well, there isn't any use for it. Hardly ties in with the Biblical definition of love either.
    And Jesus Christ, being the last and most complete revelation of God to mankind, certainly didn't even suggest such lop-sided choosing on His part....for His own glory, to boot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    If God is going to prevent the elect from making "the wrong choice" then choice is rendered moot anyway.
    God must intervene when it comes to grace and mercy. No one in Adam possesses the moral ability to choose wisely. God quickens those upon whom He has set His salvific preference, such that their own choice will be for the good. God is not doing the believing for those so quickened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Are you trying to imply, here, that the proposition (which is about the extent of the atonement), 'Christ did not die for all mankind', is not a constituent proposition of the gospel?
    That is exactly what I am stating, not implying. The extent of the atonement is not part and parcel of that which saves someone. That those who are saved may never come to fully understand the distinctions between the extent of the atonement, versus its sufficient virtue, is not something that makes them "unsaved". Rather it makes them confused. Our Lord certainly knows for whom He came to redeem. Whether we know it (some of us do) or do not know it is not abrogating the promise that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and not lost to Him. That is the duty of all. Do that. The rest will work out as the providence of God would have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    God must intervene when it comes to grace and mercy. No one in Adam possesses the moral ability to choose wisely. God quickens those upon whom He has set His salvific preference, such that their own choice will be for the good. God is not doing the believing for those so quickened.

    AMR
    I submit this notion of "In Adam" has been stretched far beyond what was intended by the few verses from Scripture from which it's taken. If that error was fixed this whole notion of Total Depravity would fall.

    Besides, you seem to be suggesting the Lord was not being honest when He told Cain in Gen. 4:6-7a " And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Mercy is getting what you do not deserve.
    That's grace, not mercy.

    Mercy is NOT getting what one DOES deserve.

    Justice is getting exactly what you deserve.

    One must start with the fall of Adam, our federal representative, made upright, yet mutable. Had he fulfilled his probationary period in the Covenant of Works, he and all his progeny would have enjoyed eternal life in bliss and glory with God. He did not, plunging all his progeny and creation into corruption. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners when we sin. Rather, we sin because we are born sinners and deserve nothing but God's justice. The thing that should amaze us and drive us to our knees is that God saves even one person from all born in Adam.

    If one has their doctrine concerning the dire effects of the fall of Adam aright, this makes perfect sense. If one does not, then all manner of error is bound to follow.

    God justly tells the reprobate:
    "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am also not going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

    God graciously tells the elect:
    "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

    After all, God need not intervene to bring about evil. We will do that all on our own. Good, however, does require intervention on God's part, for we are fallen and utterly sinful.

    AMR

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    amr

    That is the duty of all.
    Thats law keeping salvation. Do a duty to get saved, the word duty means:


    • something that one is expected or required to do by moral or legal obligation.
    • the binding or obligatory force of something that is morally or legally right; moral or legal obligation.
    • an action or task required by a person's position or occupation; function:


    Its also like saying men have a duty to become a Sheep of Christ, or a duty to become a Christian. A obligation to have the Faith of Gods Elect.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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