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  1. #46
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Oh, you're absolutely right! Why didn't I think of that?? If we have a bunch of our priests commit indecent acts with children surely THAT will convince the world of sin and bring them into the communion of the church!

    How ingenious!
    Nobody is defending any sins committed by any Christians, clergy or otherwise. Yes, it's terrible, horrible, evil, and wicked, what has happened. It's a dark age for the Church. And we brought it upon ourselves. Nobody's denying that.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Over 1500 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Nobody is defending any sins committed by any Christians, clergy or otherwise. Yes, it's terrible, horrible, evil, and wicked, what has happened. It's a dark age for the Church. And we brought it upon ourselves. Nobody's denying that.
    So why do you think getting everybody back into the Roman Catholic Church will help with the topic? Is it because of the authority structure that exists there? Or because the RCC is more holy than other church bodies? Or because you don't recognize other churches as actually being part of the body of Christ, and therefore until they are, they can't be considered true Christians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    So why do you think getting everybody back into the Roman Catholic Church will help with the topic?
    Because it's the gameplan. With the focus of Christian life re-centered upon celebrating the holy Eucharist, Christians will become more holy. We will come to understand that if we eat and drink 'unworthily,' that we are taking our lives in our hands. We will apply our understanding, by striving for holiness and worthiness, watching our choices, our thoughts, our behavior, and confessing our sins, especially our grave ones, because they fracture communion with the rest of the Body of Christ, communion is not just mental assent to the Magisterium's authorized teachings, but also the licit physical partaking of the Eucharist, which is only accomplished when we are worthy to partake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Is it because of the authority structure that exists there?
    Not 'because of,' no. But the hierarchy of the pastorates of the Church are Apostolic, and biblical. So wherever the authentic pastors of the Church are celebrating Mass, there is authentic Church worship, and we should be there, in remembrance of Him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Or because the RCC is more holy than other church bodies?
    Absolutely not, not in the way in which you mean that, no. But where the authentic pastors are celebrating the Eucharist, the Eucharist there is most holy, so in a way, perhaps, yes, because of the holiness of the Eucharist, celebrated by the Church's own authentic pastors/priests, who are tasked with celebrating the Eucharist validly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Or because you don't recognize other churches as actually being part of the body of Christ, and therefore until they are, they can't be considered true Christians?
    No. The Catholic Church declares everybody who believes in Christ to be members of the Body of Christ, and we are rightly named 'Christians,' whether Catholic or not, or in full communion with the Catholic Church or not.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Because it's the gameplan. With the focus of Christian life re-centered upon celebrating the holy Eucharist, Christians will become more holy. We will come to understand that if we eat and drink 'unworthily,' that we are taking our lives in our hands. We will apply our understanding, by striving for holiness and worthiness, watching our choices, our thoughts, our behavior, and confessing our sins, especially our grave ones, because they fracture communion with the rest of the Body of Christ, communion is not just mental assent to the Magisterium's authorized teachings, but also the licit physical partaking of the Eucharist, which is only accomplished when we are worthy to partake.
    Not 'because of,' no. But the hierarchy of the pastorates of the Church are Apostolic, and biblical. So wherever the authentic pastors of the Church are celebrating Mass, there is authentic Church worship, and we should be there, in remembrance of Him.
    Absolutely not, not in the way in which you mean that, no. But where the authentic pastors are celebrating the Eucharist, the Eucharist there is most holy, so in a way, perhaps, yes, because of the holiness of the Eucharist, celebrated by the Church's own authentic pastors/priests, who are tasked with celebrating the Eucharist validly.
    No. The Catholic Church declares everybody who believes in Christ to be members of the Body of Christ, and we are rightly named 'Christians,' whether Catholic or not, or in full communion with the Catholic Church or not.
    Bravo for a detailed response!

    But your last answer--that "rightly named 'Christians'" don't need to be in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church belies all the others. If they don't cease to be Christian by being in other churches, then are they really outside the will of their Lord, Jesus Christ? They are still "little Christs", right?

    And if so, then a focus on celebrating the eucharist validly, by which you seem to mean in the context and only in the context of a RCC mass, doesn't seem to be enough, nor does it seem to be necessary.

    If, however, you were to narrow your focus to the idea that Christians should partake of the body and blood of Christ (whether figuratively or literally) only in context of His Lordship, I and @BoyStan would both applaud, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Here is a threat of non compliance:

    Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnationh to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

    If you are unworthy, then you are not in full communion with the Body of Christ, because you cannot licitly eat and drink the Lord's Supper. That's Paul, verbatim.

    And the Catholic Church recognizes that everybody who believes in Christ is a Christian.
    You're questioning it right now.
    Using force is using force. Saying a thing is not using force. And every religion has the right to declare an office tasked with teaching the religion.
    There isn't a dilemma here, from the earliest days, the Church was both organized, and organic, in your words. There was always a hierarchy of teachers in the Church, the pastors were always there; at first it was only the Apostles themselves, but we read right in the New Testament that it didn't remain that way, and that the Apostles created pastors, the bishops.
    With or without 'the need,' the Apostles themselves started the Church with 'organisational aspects' baked right in.
    I don't think many people think the Catholic Church is a business, but we can agree to disagree.
    I reject Catholicism outright.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Yeah but who did you get that idea from, did you get it from a new age teacher?
    You reap what you sow by how you judge, nothing new age about that dead letter truth.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    You reap what you sow by how you judge, nothing new age about that dead letter truth.
    No one reaps what they sow in this life, according to the Bible, only in the after life. False religions teaching karma.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    No one reaps what they sow in this life, according to the Bible, only in the after life. False religions teaching karma.
    Ok enjoy the after life, it's a oxymoron though.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    Ok enjoy the after life, it's a oxymoron though.
    Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad in this world.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad in this world.
    Only one power, man believes in good and bad with a god that judges by appearance, a wheel of cause and effect, as a man thinks (cause) so is he (effect).
    Job-For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    Only one power, man believes in good and bad with a god that judges by appearance, a wheel of cause and effect, as a man thinks (cause) so is he (effect).
    Job-For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
    For the Christian, we reap what we sow for the next life, because this life you don't always get what you deserve.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  12. #57
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad in this world.
    One of those bad things is being murdered. In the earliest Church, when Christians were murdered for their faith, for their witness to Christ's Resurrection (martyrs), it was felt among many of them, that it was glorious. To be murdered for Christian faith was glorious. The Church celebrated the 'birthdays' of martyrdoms/Christian murders. It was horrific and tragic, but many in the Church believed that it was an exceptionally good thing, when this bad thing occurred. It reflects just how deep was their faith in Christ, our King. To die for Him, witnessing of Him, was glorious only because of the depth of their faith. It's something to think about.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    One of those bad things is being murdered. In the earliest Church, when Christians were murdered for their faith, for their witness to Christ's Resurrection (martyrs), it was felt among many of them, that it was glorious. To be murdered for Christian faith was glorious. The Church celebrated the 'birthdays' of martyrdoms/Christian murders. It was horrific and tragic, but many in the Church believed that it was an exceptionally good thing, when this bad thing occurred. It reflects just how deep was their faith in Christ, our King. To die for Him, witnessing of Him, was glorious only because of the depth of their faith. It's something to think about.
    Well, true, but I was speaking about other things, to a new age believer. There are religions that preach karma and reaping what you sow. That is a new age belief from false religions, religions like Hinduism, and Buddhism, and Sikhism.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyStan View Post
    I reject Catholicism outright.
    A lot of bona fide Christians do, and yet she teaches that all those who believe in Christ compose the Body of Christ, the Church; Catholic, or 'Catholics on their way to full communion,' which are the two types of Christians the Catholic Church acknowledges.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Bravo for a detailed response!

    But your last answer--that "rightly named 'Christians'" don't need to be in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church belies all the others. If they don't cease to be Christian by being in other churches, then are they really outside the will of their Lord, Jesus Christ?
    The difference (or an important difference anyway, if not 'the' difference) is between those bona fide believers who acknowledge and joyfully receive the 'wedding gifts' that Christ continually bestows upon His Bride, the Church, primarily in the form of the Church's bishops' authentic teachings on matters of faith and morals, and in the form of the sacraments; and those who regard these gifts with suspicion, derision, and contempt.

    We are His flock, and His job as Shepherd is to care for us, but those of us who reject our Shepherd's feed, are surely worse off than those who gratefully receive it. This of course is only true if I'm right, but if I'm right, then I believe that this also is true.

    Are non-Catholics 'outside the will of' Christ? Sure. In the same way that we are all sinners. It's never His will that we sin, yet we sin. It can never be said that we sin because that is His will for us. And in the same way, it can never be said that us not licitly partaking of the Eucharist, is His will for us either. He wants/wills us to celebrate the Eucharist. It's right in Acts 2:42 KJV, Paul devotes much of a chapter to it in 1st Corinthians 11, and it is the 'common' celebration of the Eucharist, in which all the members of His Body the Church, are truly in 'union' with each other, making up the one Body. 'Common' + 'union'

    iow, it doesn't make us not a Christian, to not be in full communion with the Church, but it is His will that we be in full communion with the Church.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    They are still "little Christs", right?
    Kudos on the Keith Green reference. Two of his songs are really amazing. Although I learned that one of them, 'Easter Song' I believe is the title, is actually a cover, and that somebody else wrote it. 'Still amazing. It gives me shivers and brings tears to my eyes sometimes.

    All's to say is that I investigated the claim that 'Christian' means 'little Christ,' and found the evidence for that claim to be less than firm. But regardless, 'Christian' has always meant a follower of Christ, a believer in Christ, a believer in Christ's Resurrection, and those who believe that He is the Jewish Messiah.

    And as I said, not being in full communion, does not render a person who genuinely believes in Christ, from being a bona fide Christian, so yes, we are still Christians, apocryphally 'little Christs' or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    And if so, then a focus on celebrating the eucharist validly, by which you seem to mean in the context and only in the context of a RCC mass
    The Orthodox Mass also celebrates the Eucharist validly, since the Orthodox bishops also validly celebrate Holy Orders, along with Catholic bishops, and all of them too descend from Apostolic lineage. If the world could revert to all Christians being either Catholic or Orthodox (largely what the world was before the Reformation), then that would be a big step in the right direction, in my view.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    , doesn't seem to be enough, nor does it seem to be necessary.
    It's not necessary for eternal salvation, but wrt it being 'enough,' idk how carefully Christians have 'examined' themselves (1Co11:28KJV), even to this day, before partaking of 'this bread' and 'this cup.' idk that the bishops have as thoroughly catechized the faithful concerning the gravity of partaking 'unworthily,' as they perhaps ought. Or, perhaps the teaching is there, but the application is not there among the faithful.

    But beyond that, and outside the Church, I do think that while the first 15 centuries of Christianity was the 'big step in the right direction' I mentioned above, it was, beginning in the 4th century, in the global political context of 'Christendom,' which is a mingling together of Christian morality with civil authority and power, i.e. force.

    In America and the West, we are undressing society from this defect right now, it began in force during the Reformation, and it continues to this day, with more and more laws being invalidated or nullified or repealed, whose source is not 'the consent of the governed,' but instead the Christian moral code/God's law. I believe that it will be 'enough' that all the Church be in full communion together, and that our world is rid of 'Christendom' on the civil side of things.

    If you think about it, that'd be a return to a brief moment in history, between when Constantine legalized Christianity, and when later on in that same century, all the other religions/paganisms were outlawed. It'd be a return to that time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    If, however, you were to narrow your focus to the idea that Christians should partake of the body and blood of Christ (whether figuratively or literally) only in context of His Lordship
    A person who genuinely believes in Christ would always necessarily be partaking 'in context of His Lordship,' wouldn't they? If not, I don't understand what this phrasing signifies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    , I and @BoyStan would both applaud, I think.
    'Something to shoot for.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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