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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    So...you make up a term and tell others it matters not if you use it. LOL, you're just making up things and trying to argue. That's just silly.
    Here is another question that you will refuse to answer:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

    If you say Yes, then you are admitting that you believe that you were, during that period, both elect AND unregenerate--an unregenerate, elect person.

    If you say No, then you are not even a Calvinist, and what's more, your No will necessarily entail that you believe you were already regenerate in eternity past, and before you were even conceived, and born from the womb.

    So, Mr. Jesuit, here's the question again:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

    What are you waiting for? Answer the question.

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    LOL, you have no clue.
    My suggestion: start reading a Bible.
    Answer the question:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Here is another question that you will refuse to answer:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

    If you say Yes, then you are admitting that you believe that you were, during that period, both elect AND unregenerate--an unregenerate, elect person.

    If you say No, then you are not even a Calvinist, and what's more, your No will necessarily entail that you believe you were already regenerate in eternity past, and before you were even conceived, and born from the womb.

    So, Mr. Jesuit, here's the question again:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

    What are you waiting for? Answer the question.
    You're asking two questions. Do you know why you're asking two questions?
    Sadly, you don't know what the Bible says, therefore you don't know what you don't know.
    What you know is that you hate whatever Calvinism is, but you don't know what Calvinism is, but you hate whatever that is.
    Read a Bible, jengy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Answer the question:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?
    It's possible, since regeneration precedes faith, and since "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God," that actual conversion (believing the Gospel) might lag regeneration, since faith requires hearing the Word of God, but regeneration does not. This then creates ambiguity as to what Irresistible Grace refers to; is it regeneration that is irresistible, or is it faith? And if it is not faith, then are there any who are elected, regenerated, but who don't believe the Gospel?

    The Clavinism I believed, was that Irresistible Grace referred to conversion. I'm not convinced that it referring to anything other than faith or conversion is possible, or if the rest of the system would collapse.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You're asking two questions. Do you know why you're asking two questions?
    Sadly, you don't know what the Bible says, therefore you don't know what you don't know.
    What you know is that you hate whatever Calvinism is, but you don't know what Calvinism is, but you hate whatever that is.
    Read a Bible, jengy.
    Here is the question I am asking you, and you refuse to answer it:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

    Stop lying, stop being a hypocrite, stop stonewalling, stop being a coward. Answer the question:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Here is the question I am asking you, and you refuse to answer it:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

    Stop lying, stop being a hypocrite, stop stonewalling, stop being a coward. Answer the question:

    As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?
    Your one question is really two questions. Do you know why? The Bible will answer both questions, but you, presently, do not grasp why your question is actually two. I will not toss you pearls.

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Your one question is really two questions. Do you know why? The Bible will answer both questions, but you, presently, do not grasp why your question is actually two. I will not toss you pearls.
    On the contrary, the question I asked you--

    "As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?"

    --is really one question, and not two questions.


    When you wrote "Your one question is really two questions," you were saying that there are two questions that you have in mind, in addition to the one question I asked.

    So, to which (if any) two questions would you say you are referring?

    Question 1. ____________________________________________?
    Question 2. ____________________________________________?

    Fill in those blanks!

    Of course you will not toss me pearls! You have none to toss; and even if you had any, your cloven hooves would inhibit you from tossing them. Just fill in those blanks, and stop dragging the Bible through your mire!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    On the contrary, the question I asked you--

    "As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?"

    --is really one question, and not two questions.


    When you wrote "Your one question is really two questions," you were saying that there are two questions that you have in mind, in addition to the one question I asked.

    So, to which (if any) two questions would you say you are referring?

    Question 1. ____________________________________________?
    Question 2. ____________________________________________?

    Fill in those blanks!

    Of course you will not toss me pearls! You have none to toss; and even if you had any, your cloven hooves would inhibit you from tossing them. Just fill in those blanks, and stop dragging the Bible through your mire!
    So demanding to answer under your rules. Are you always this controlling? Is that why you reject God choosing whom he wills to be saved and demand that you have sovereign control over your life?
    When you recognize the dual question that you are asking, let me know. Presently, you are clueless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    So demanding to answer under your rules. Are you always this controlling? Is that why you reject God choosing whom he wills to be saved and demand that you have sovereign control over your life?
    When you recognize the dual question that you are asking, let me know. Presently, you are clueless.
    When you wrote "Your one question is really two questions," what are the two questions to which you were referring? Can you please tell me what they are, because, indeed, as you said, I am clueless as to what two question you were referring?

    Of course, the question I asked you--

    "As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?"

    --is really one question, and not two questions.

    However, since you claimed I was asking two questions, whereas I only asked the one question, I am clueless as to what two questions you were referring. Why can't you just share them with me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    When you wrote "Your one question is really two questions," what are the two questions to which you were referring? Can you please tell me what they are, because, indeed, as you said, I am clueless as to what two question you were referring?

    Of course, the question I asked you--

    "As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?"

    --is really one question, and not two questions.

    However, since you claimed I was asking two questions, whereas I only asked the one question, I am clueless as to what two questions you were referring. Why can't you just share them with me?
    Your question requires perspective. From which perspective does a person answer. Therefore, there are two questions.
    First, from God's perspective, the elect were chosen from before the foundation of the world. God, being outside of time, knew the elect...always. From that view, the answer is...no.
    Second, from my finite and timebound perspective, I was dead in my trespasses and sins, following my master, the devil. But, God, made me alive in Christ Jesus, saving me by His grace at just the right time so that He might be glorified. From that view, the answer is...yes.
    So...your question is really two questions because there are two perspectives.
    A theology professor once explained it like this: There is a door frame. On the side where humans view the door, you see the words "All who will may enter." On the side where God views the door, you see the words "Chosen from before the foundation of the world." Thus the answer is given from the perspective from which you look.

    But, this is easily read in scripture, if you actually wished to read scripture. That is all that John Calvin did. He didn't add anything new to God's word. He wasn't like Joseph Smith. He didn't remove from scripture. He wasn't like Charles Taze Russell. Calvin just observed scripture and let it say what it says.
    I suggest you do the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Your question requires perspective. From which perspective does a person answer. Therefore, there are two questions.
    First, from God's perspective, the elect were chosen from before the foundation of the world. God, being outside of time, knew the elect...always. From that view, the answer is...no.
    Second, from my finite and timebound perspective, I was dead in my trespasses and sins, following my master, the devil. But, God, made me alive in Christ Jesus, saving me by His grace at just the right time so that He might be glorified. From that view, the answer is...yes.
    So...your question is really two questions because there are two perspectives.
    A theology professor once explained it like this: There is a door frame. On the side where humans view the door, you see the words "All who will may enter." On the side where God views the door, you see the words "Chosen from before the foundation of the world." Thus the answer is given from the perspective from which you look.

    But, this is easily read in scripture, if you actually wished to read scripture. That is all that John Calvin did. He didn't add anything new to God's word. He wasn't like Joseph Smith. He didn't remove from scripture. He wasn't like Charles Taze Russell. Calvin just observed scripture and let it say what it says.
    I suggest you do the same.
    In the first place, I asked you to tell me what two questions you had in mind when you said to me, "Your one question is really two questions." So far, you have not told me which (if any) questions you had in mind. In your post, #25, the only question marks I found occurred in the quote box, and they were all at the ends of the questions I asked you. I searched in vain, in the body of your own comments, for question marks, and there was not even one to be found. No question marks = No questions. Inasmuch as you provided no questions, whatsoever, you failed to provide the two questions I asked you about. So, again, I request that you please tell me what (if any) two questions you had in mind when you said "Your one question is really two questions," because, so far--as you, yourself, admitted--I have no clue as to what questions you were talking about (if you actually even had two questions in mind, and were not merely bluffing); you are the only one that can supply that clue, since you were the one purportedly referring to two questions. If, on the other hand, you were just bluffing, then you ought to come clean and tell me: "Look, I'm sorry. It was dishonest of me, but I merely said that your one question is really two questions without really having any questions in mind." You won't, of course, but you ought to.

    At any rate, you finally answered the one question I did ask--

    "As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?"

    And your answer to it was "the answer is...yes."

    So, fancying yourself to be an elect person, you now admit that you believe there was a time during which you were BOTH

    1. Elect,

    AND

    2. Not yet regenerated--unregenerate.

    Thus, you have now admitted that you believe you were once, simultaneously, UNREGENERATE AND ELECT. But, observe what you are on record as having said to me, in regard to the phrase 'unregenerate elect':

    In post #11, you wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I don't use the term "unregenerate elect." Perhaps someone else does, but I don't find the term in scripture.
    But, obviously, since, as you now admit, you believe you were once simultaneously unregenerate and elect, and since you would pretend that you believe it because you think it is based on Scripture, your complaint that the phrase, 'unregenerate elect', is not in Scripture, is manifestly frivolous. Perhaps you also are an anti-Trinitarian, since you don't find the phrase, 'The Trinity', in Scripture.

    Indeed, you have now plainly admitted the Calvinist category I've been talking about all along: the unregenerate elect. You have just now claimed to have been, at an earlier time, one of 'em. It is a category inextricable from TULIP theology, and necessarily embarrassing to those who, like you, pretend to be defenders of Calvinism. Remember, in post #13, you wrote to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    So...you make up a term and tell others it matters not if you use it. LOL, you're just making up things and trying to argue. That's just silly.
    Indeed, it doesn't matter a whit that you, yourself, did not write the phrase, "unregenerate elect", in any of your posts to me, because your admission that you believe you were once simultaneously unregenerate and elect is nothing other than an admission, on your part, that you believe in the state of affairs referred to by the term, 'unregenerate elect.'

    Your "I don't find the term in scripture" ploy backfires on you, too. You don't find anywhere in Scripture the term you used, "timebound [sic] perspective", and nevertheless, you used it. It's not in Scripture, but you used it anyway! Why the double-standard? And, I'm not going to be so silly as to pretend I think you made that term up, as you pretended to think I made up the term, 'unregenerate elect'.

    Also, you have now admitted that you believe you were once simultaneously elect and a follower of the devil! For all your pretense about how much you revere the Bible, it is quite telling to see you saying that an elect person can be a follower, a servant, of the devil, and that the devil can be master of an elect person! Where's that to be found in Scripture? Nowhere! Perhaps you will try to claim that, while it is obvious that no one passage of Scripture explicitly states that an elect person is, or can be, a servant of the devil, we somehow ought to infer it, and accept it as though it is a necessary implication from multiple Scripture proof-texts. But, your own conduct will shoot that sentiment down, right quick, for you manifestly oppose making inferences to necessary consequence. For instance, I had laid out the syllogism, whose major and minor premises both are propositions you pretend to believe to be true, viz.:

    Maj.: All false teachers are non-elect,
    Min.: Greg Boyd is a false teacher,
    Ergo,
    Conc: Greg Boyd is non-elect,

    and, though you purportedly agree with both the premises, you have, thus far, utterly refused to personally conclude, and to state what is necessarily implied by those premises--that Greg Boyd is non-elect. So, you'll manifest astounding hypocrisy whenever you try to claim that you have arrived at believing any other propositions of Calvinism by way of inference to necessary consequence from the propositions of Scripture!

    So, now I ask you, since you have now admitted to believing that you were once simultaneously unregenerate and elect, what is your real motivation for refusing to use the term 'unregenerate elect', since the bogus reason you gave has just been exploded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    In the first place, I asked you to tell me what two questions you had in mind when you said to me, "Your one question is really two questions." So far, you have not told me which (if any) questions you had in mind. In your post, #25, the only question marks I found occurred in the quote box, and they were all at the ends of the questions I asked you. I searched in vain, in the body of your own comments, for question marks, and there was not even one to be found. No question marks = No questions. Inasmuch as you provided no questions, whatsoever, you failed to provide the two questions I asked you about. So, again, I request that you please tell me what (if any) two questions you had in mind when you said "Your one question is really two questions," because, so far--as you, yourself, admitted--I have no clue as to what questions you were talking about (if you actually even had two questions in mind, and were not merely bluffing); you are the only one that can supply that clue, since you were the one purportedly referring to two questions. If, on the other hand, you were just bluffing, then you ought to come clean and tell me: "Look, I'm sorry. It was dishonest of me, but I merely said that your one question is really two questions without really having any questions in mind." You won't, of course, but you ought to.

    At any rate, you finally answered the one question I did ask--

    "As an elect person, was there ever a time during which you were not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?"

    And your answer to it was "the answer is...yes."

    So, fancying yourself to be an elect person, you now admit that you believe there was a time during which you were BOTH

    1. Elect,

    AND

    2. Not yet regenerated--unregenerate.

    Thus, you have now admitted that you believe you were once, simultaneously, UNREGENERATE AND ELECT. But, observe what you are on record as having said to me, in regard to the phrase 'unregenerate elect':

    In post #11, you wrote:



    But, obviously, since, as you now admit, you believe you were once simultaneously unregenerate and elect, and since you would pretend that you believe it because you think it is based on Scripture, your complaint that the phrase, 'unregenerate elect', is not in Scripture, is manifestly frivolous. Perhaps you also are an anti-Trinitarian, since you don't find the phrase, 'The Trinity', in Scripture.

    Indeed, you have now plainly admitted the Calvinist category I've been talking about all along: the unregenerate elect. You have just now claimed to have been, at an earlier time, one of 'em. It is a category inextricable from TULIP theology, and necessarily embarrassing to those who, like you, pretend to be defenders of Calvinism. Remember, in post #13, you wrote to me:



    Indeed, it doesn't matter a whit that you, yourself, did not write the phrase, "unregenerate elect", in any of your posts to me, because your admission that you believe you were once simultaneously unregenerate and elect is nothing other than an admission, on your part, that you believe in the state of affairs referred to by the term, 'unregenerate elect.'

    Your "I don't find the term in scripture" ploy backfires on you, too. You don't find anywhere in Scripture the term you used, "timebound [sic] perspective", and nevertheless, you used it. It's not in Scripture, but you used it anyway! Why the double-standard? And, I'm not going to be so silly as to pretend I think you made that term up, as you pretended to think I made up the term, 'unregenerate elect'.

    Also, you have now admitted that you believe you were once simultaneously elect and a follower of the devil! For all your pretense about how much you revere the Bible, it is quite telling to see you saying that an elect person can be a follower, a servant, of the devil, and that the devil can be master of an elect person! Where's that to be found in Scripture? Nowhere! Perhaps you will try to claim that, while it is obvious that no one passage of Scripture explicitly states that an elect person is, or can be, a servant of the devil, we somehow ought to infer it, and accept it as though it is a necessary implication from multiple Scripture proof-texts. But, your own conduct will shoot that sentiment down, right quick, for you manifestly oppose making inferences to necessary consequence. For instance, I had laid out the syllogism, whose major and minor premises both are propositions you pretend to believe to be true, viz.:

    Maj.: All false teachers are non-elect,
    Min.: Greg Boyd is a false teacher,
    Ergo,
    Conc: Greg Boyd is non-elect,

    and, though you purportedly agree with both the premises, you have, thus far, utterly refused to personally conclude, and to state what is necessarily implied by those premises--that Greg Boyd is non-elect. So, you'll manifest astounding hypocrisy whenever you try to claim that you have arrived at believing any other propositions of Calvinism by way of inference to necessary consequence from the propositions of Scripture!

    So, now I ask you, since you have now admitted to believing that you were once simultaneously unregenerate and elect, what is your real motivation for refusing to use the term 'unregenerate elect', since the bogus reason you gave has just been exploded?
    LOL, you ARE a pretzel maker.
    Why do you hate God and His Sovereignty?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyStan View Post
    Calling yourself a Christian today is folly. The Christian name tag has become repulsive to the world.
    The New Testament emphasises that we are saints. Let us call ourselves saints. Let us rejoice in our sainthood!
    That is an interesting thought. I think it would sure make one more careful about what they are doing.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyStan View Post
    Calling yourself a Christian today is folly. The Christian name tag has become repulsive to the world.
    The New Testament emphasises that we are saints. Let us call ourselves saints. Let us rejoice in our sainthood!
    I said
    The only saints are Christians. And if the title of Christian was good enough for the apostles its good enough for me. Anyway you could loose your own Christian standing if you are one. By criticizing them.

    [Jas 4:11
    [11] Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyStan View Post
    Calling yourself a Christian today is folly. The Christian name tag has become repulsive to the world.
    The New Testament emphasises that we are saints. Let us call ourselves saints. Let us rejoice in our sainthood!
    Who cares what the world thinks, it's mostly your own reflection your seeing in others that you judge keeping you perpetuity reaping your own mind candy. labels and names have no substance other than herd hypnosis to keep you slumbering, the teaching of Christ is the way "in" to your true identity, not some religious ear tag or cultural nose ring that makes you Caesars property.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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