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Thread: All Things Second Amendment

  1. #1
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    All Things Second Amendment

    I'm pulling an off-topic conversation into a new thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Most Americans would agree with me that calling the NRA terrorists, instead of shils, is a silly idea. And while most Americans would agree with me that gun laws should be toughened, I doubt my particular line in the sand would be that popular.
    That's because your line in the sand is that we each only have the right to be Davy Crockett.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Vote NRA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    No. They once honored the safe use of weapons.
    They still very much do. The NRA remains the standard bearer for gun safety. They also naturally have an interest in gun law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Now they're little more than a mouthpiece for gun producers.
    A cynical view, a distorted perspective. The NRA believes similarly to me, that the Second Amendment prohibits lawmakers from meddling in the gun market.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    And they've wrapped congress around their middle finger where American opinion is concerned.
    How do you think it's possible for the NRA to unilaterally control what our lawmakers do? These men and women are all elected in free and fair elections.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I know you don't care about that, but congress should in a representative democracy.
    The system is not broken. Many Americans vote NRA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    ...the NRA largely (not perfectly) supports obeying the supreme law of the land, and the authorized interpretations of that law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    You mean they'll take what they can get until they can get more.
    No, I mean that the NRA is not as staunchly opposed to gun control as I am. The NRA has presided over, with their approval, the making of gun control laws, including the NICS background check's implementation. The NRA has no qualms about the federal NFA or the GCA. The NRA has no opposition to President Reagan's kibosh on civilians ever owning a standard issue rifle manufactured after 1986. When you say 'they'll take what they can get,' I marvel at the diametric opposition to how I view them; it's closer to that they'll give what they can, to appease a public and a legislature bent on disobeying the authorized interpretation of the Second Amendment.

    The NRA is the best thing going for gun rights people like me, but they are far from ideal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Either the Supreme Court's authorized interpretation is correct, or it's not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    It isn't, but it will take the continuation of American resolve to undo that error.
    Agree to disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    On the plus side, for my perspective, it's heading in that direction pretty powerfully.
    Within our three branches of government, I see the courts cracking down more and more on laws that contravene the Second Amendment. What we're really heading toward is whether or not the majority of Americans who are OK with gun control, are also OK with amending the Bill of Rights, because the Supreme Court is making it clearer and clearer that the Second Amendment affirms a right that most Americans seemingly don't believe that we possess.

    The Second Amendment is a law aimed at lawmakers, and the S. Ct. is saying that gun control is meddling in gun markets, and that the Second Amendment specifically prohibits that. We have to decide whether we're going to amend the Bill of Rights, or if we're going to abide by it. The S. Ct. is going to force the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    The right of the black people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. I don't see the parallel. The unconstitutional Mulford Act sounds more like Dred Scott to me, being that this law targeted black people, patently infringing their right to keep and bear arms; who, just btw, are like my favorite people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Sure you do. You just don't want to consider it.
    I have considered it. Dred Scott denied rights. My view is that we must repeal laws already on the books that also deny rights. In the plainest reading of the Second Amendment, and also in its constitutionally authorized interpretation, the right of all people to keep and bear arms should be expansively protected, and not narrowly limited to some arbitrary line in the sand. It's explicit about it in an unusual way, none of our other rights, whether inalienable or created, are so obviously defended like our right to bear arms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Like public opinion.
    The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is a confusing topic. It's no wonder, given all the gun control laws already on the books, placed there by legislatures long past, and long dead. Gun control has become a tradition in America, and most Americans (according to public opinion polls) just see gun control as a knob that can be turned by lawmakers, anywhere from say 1-10. If we're today at a 5, then a lot people think we need to turn it up to an 8 or 9, and some very few think it should be turned down to a 1 or 2.

    As I've said, I think the knob should be pulled off, and the mechanism disabled. That's because the Second Amendment, the supreme law of the land wrt the gun market, denies legislatures the power to make gun laws.

    So to reiterate, we are heading toward a decision node wrt the Bill of Rights. We have never amended it since the first ten amendments amended the original Constitution itself, and if Americans really do believe in gun control, then the S. Ct. is going to force us to choose to amend it, instead of illegally making gun control laws.

    'Should be fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    According to Gallop polling (link) most Americans want more gun control (67%), while those supporting the status quo declines (28%) and those wanting looser laws and repeals is the lowest and declining (4%).
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I don't, really care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    It wouldn't do for you to care, given how little support you have in that position, but it will, over time, matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    It will, when otherwise innocent people start to go 'hot,' in revolt against lawmakers who obstinately continue to have no regard for our inalienable gun rights, and the supreme law that very specifically protects them. Give me liberty or give me death, or some such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    If they want to become criminals then let them accept the consequence of that choice.
    Spoken like a Brit in 1776.

    'The British are coming!' meant, 'The British are coming For the Guns!'

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  2. #2
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I'm pulling an off-topic conversation into a new thread.
    That's because your line in the sand is that we each only have the right to be Davy Crockett.
    Nah. I'm saying that the Founders were speaking to weapons that were sufficient to meet the right. More, that we have better weapons of the same sort as capable. Further, that going beyond that point promotes a needless danger to the citizens of our country.

    The NRA remains the standard bearer for gun safety.
    Not true, unless your idea of a standard is fairly non-existent. Try putting a bill through congress that requires gun safety courses. Watch who will oppose it.

    A cynical view, a distorted perspective.
    How the NRA could do more for the gun industry if they wanted to?

    The NRA believes similarly to me, that the Second Amendment prohibits lawmakers from meddling in the gun market.
    That's what the gun industry believes too.

    How do you think it's possible for the NRA to unilaterally control what our lawmakers do?
    That would be a great question for someone who said the NRA unilaterally controls what lawmakers do. But what I know is that the NRA, directly and indirectly, funnels a lot of money and attention to congressional races. It's one reason that when most Americans wanted to limit the sorts of clips that were available and strengthen background checks congress ignored them. The members understood that the passion of the moment would diminish and that the NRA and the gun industry would still be there,.

    The system is not broken. Many Americans vote NRA.
    Didn't say it was broken. I was responding to your tendency to ignore what most Americans want, how you (and the NRA) don't particularly care. And most Americans don't vote NRA or in accord with their position given, as per my not of the Gallop polling (link) most Americans want more gun control (67%), while those supporting the status quo declines (28%) and those wanting looser laws and repeals is the lowest and declining (4%).

    The NRA doesn't represent most Americans. It is an extremist group advancing an extremist agenda, but with a great deal of accomplishment along the PR line, at least until lately.

    No, I mean that the NRA is not as staunchly opposed to gun control as I am.
    I never said you weren't more radical in your view.

    Within our three branches of government, I see the courts cracking down more and more on laws that contravene the Second Amendment. What we're really heading toward is whether or not the majority of Americans who are OK with gun control, are also OK with amending the Bill of Rights, because the Supreme Court is making it clearer and clearer that the Second Amendment affirms a right that most Americans seemingly don't believe that we possess.
    If the mass shootings continue I suspect we'll see that sooner than later, though it's sad that it may take a few more schoolyards littered with the corpses of children to turn opinion into action.

    'Spoken like a Brit in 1776.

    'The British are coming!' meant, 'The British are coming For the Guns!'
    Actually, that's a myth. Much like the idea that we need assault weapons to be safe or that public safety is advanced by having the weapons I'd like to see removed from the stream of commerce.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post

    'The British are coming!' meant, 'The British are coming For the Guns!'

    remember when Palin got lambasted for getting that right?

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    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    remember when Palin got lambasted for getting that right?
    idk if this source is good:

    https://www.factcheck.org/2011/06/pa...n-paul-revere/

    " . . . American rebels had stored arms and gunpowder at Concord, and . . . British Gen. Thomas Gage . . . had decided to seize and destroy those arms...."
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Everyone should own guns, but politicians hate them.

    People, not guns.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    idk if this source is good:

    https://www.factcheck.org/2011/06/pa...n-paul-revere/

    " . . . American rebels had stored arms and gunpowder at Concord, and . . . British Gen. Thomas Gage . . . had decided to seize and destroy those arms...."
    yep


    and palin got ridiculed by morons whose knowledge of the event hadn't progressed past what they'd been spoonfed in third grade

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Everyone has a God-given right to purchase, own, and carry individual defensive weapons.

    If they misuse those weapons, they should be punished for the crimes they committed with those weapons.

    A gun is a tool that is used to kill. (Also for target sports, but there's nothing criminal about that.) A gun cannot itself commit a crime. It can be used in the commission of a crime, though.

    Since a gun is a tool that the normal use of which kills, and since all attempted crimes (but unsuccessful), and anyone involved in the (attempted) commission of a crime, should be punished as if it were successful, then it stands to reason that if someone uses a gun in the commission of a crime, that such a criminal's intent is to kill, and should, upon being caught and tried (due process), be executed for his crime.

    This would deter criminals from not only using guns in committing crimes, but would reduce the crime rate overall, due to the higher risk of being killed in their commission of such a crime.

    All of that in addition to the risk of being attacked and wounded or even killed by innocent bystanders defending themselves with their own defensive weapons.

    Only the craziest of criminals would even dare to commit a crime in such a society. The rest would be deterred, and the innocent people wouldn't have much fear of leaving their homes and being harmed or killed by violence.

    The only gun control needed is how one holds the gun and when to use it. Such is enough to deter the common criminal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    ...Only the craziest of criminals would even dare to commit a crime in such a society.

    there's two problems with that

    first, there's enough crazies out there to feed the news cycle, crazies who shoot up schools, playgrounds, movie theaters

    second, there's way too many retards that think the way to stop them is to take away specific weapons, or all weapons - from everybody




    in every case of a crazy shooting up a schoolyard (who doesn't commit suicide), they're stopped by somebody else with a gun


    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The only gun control needed is how one holds the gun and when to use it. Such is enough to deter the common criminal.
    ...and to stop the occasional crazy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    there's two problems with that

    first, there's enough crazies out there to feed the news cycle, crazies who shoot up schools, playgrounds, movie theaters
    Most of those crazies are just your common criminal who has grown bold enough to graduate to violent crimes, because he has no fear of the government or of God.

    Put the fear of God back into the hands of the government (through the deterrent of the death penalty) and most (of course, not all) criminals would think twice about committing that crime.

    second, there's way too many retards that think the way to stop them is to take away specific weapons, or all weapons - from everybody
    Sad, but true. Which is why it almost certainly won't happen in my lifetime. Still, do right and risk the consequences.

    in every case of a crazy shooting up a schoolyard (who doesn't commit suicide), they're stopped by somebody else with a gun
    Isn't that funny though? And even in the cases where they do commit suicide, they're still stopped by a gun (their own).

    As I said, guns (like swords) are meant for killing.

    They do that job very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Most of those crazies are just your common criminal who has grown bold enough to graduate to violent crimes, because he has no fear of the government or of God.

    Put the fear of God back into the hands of the government (through the deterrent of the death penalty) and most (of course, not all) criminals would think twice about committing that crime.



    Sad, but true. Which is why it almost certainly won't happen in my lifetime. Still, do right and risk the consequences.



    Isn't that funny though? And even in the cases where they do commit suicide, they're still stopped by a gun (their own).

    As I said, guns (like swords) are meant for killing.

    They do that job very well.
    i live in new york state

    got one of these coming via ups today -


    da gubmint won't let me buy subsonic 22LR or magazines that hold more than 7 rounds, or I'd get a Ruger 1022 with a fifty round clip of subsonic

    but they don't regulate air rifles

    yet

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