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Thread: Is Jesus God?

  1. #91
    Over 5000 post club 1Mind1Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    It's really incredible how you deceive yourself.


    The Bible says that the WORD WAS GOD.... not "God's spoken word and the wisdom behind that word".

    You're just completely delusional.
    The word was toward God.

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
    The word was toward God.
    Uh, no.

    It actually says "the Word was with God and God was the Word."


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    Greetings again Right Divider,
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    It's really incredible how you deceive yourself.
    The Bible says that the WORD WAS GOD.... not "God's spoken word and the wisdom behind that word". You're just completely delusional.
    In the Psalm 33:6,9 and Isaiah 55:10-11 references, the spoken word and the wisdom and power behind that word take on the language of partial personification. In John 1:1 the Word is a full personification. It is only when we arrive at John 1:14 that this Word and the Wisdom behind this word is made into flesh, and the process is by the power of the Holy Spirit, that is the power of the Highest, God the Father coming upon Mary and conceiving in her womb, and as a result Jesus was born the Only Begotten of the Father, the Son of God, and his character and glory was revealed when mature as full of grace and truth. The alternative proposed by Trinitarians is very ambiguous and contradictory, and does not fit what is revealed concerning the birth of Jesus.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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  6. #94
    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=JudgeRightly;5283244]Keypurr, you didn't answer my question.

    Here's my post again. Could you address it directly, please?

    _______________________________________________



    Again, you said "I go with (1)," which is this:

    "Something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."

    Whereas the alternative was this:

    "Something is good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)."

    In other words you yourself said that the standard for something being good does not come from God (he does not command it), but that it is something apart from him that is the standard for goodness.


    The standard comes for the creator. If I said it didn't my head must have been in the clouds that day.
    To which I then asked:


    [see original post for the quoted text, linked to above]



    So again, Keypurr:

    What is the standard God uses to determine if something is good? Is that standard greater than, equal to, or lesser than God?

    If it is lesser than God, then why does He use it as His standard, if it is below Him? Wouldn't it be better for Him to use Himself as the standard than to use something beneath Him?

    If it is equal to Him, then would not that contradict His claim "there is none beside Me"?

    If it is greater than He is, then wouldn't that mean that He is not God, but rather that the standard is that He uses?

    Since the creator set the standard he would be greater than the standard.

    Your comparing Apples and Oranges. The standard is not as great as the standard giver. The standard would be his will, what he expects. The world is not as great as the God who made it, neither is the standard.
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Keypurr, you didn't answer my question.

    Here's my post again. Could you address it directly, please?

    _______________________________________________



    Again, you said "I go with (1)," which is this:

    "Something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."

    Whereas the alternative was this:

    "Something is good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)."

    In other words you yourself said that the standard for something being good does not come from God (he does not command it), but that it is something apart from him that is the standard for goodness.







    Since the creator set the standard he would be greater than the standard.

    Your comparing Apples and Oranges. The standard is not as great as the standard giver. The standard would be his will, what he expects. The world is not as great as the God who made it, neither is the standard.
    Could you please fix the formatting?
    Last edited by JudgeRightly; October 25th, 2018 at 04:25 AM.

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    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Uh, no.

    It actually says "the Word was with God and God was the Word."

    Nope it doesn't, go to the Hebrew or Aramaic. The originals were not in Greek.
    The Greek came later and distorted the verse. Disagree if you wish, but it is most likely.
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Nope it doesn't, go to the Hebrew or Aramaic. The originals were not in Greek.
    The Greek came later and distorted the verse. Disagree if you wish, but it is most likely.
    You're making the claim, now support it with evidence.

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  13. #98
    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Rosenritter, Jesus refers to this unique concept and our record of this is in Greek:
    John 10:34-36 (KJV): 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    Jesus uses the example of the Judges to answer their false accusation. Just as the Judges represented God, receiving the word of God and acting on God’s behalf and were called by God the Father “Elohim” or “gods”, so Jesus in his greater role as the Son of God represented God and acted on his behalf.
    The Psalm speaks of "God" and "the gods." One of those Gods does the judging, whereas the other gods are the ones being judged as unrighteous. Which one of those terms did Jesus apply to himself, and which one did he apply to the Pharisees?

    In that same gospel, we see that Jesus had already identified himself as the Judge. In that psalm, that makes him the "God" with the capital G.

    The Word in John 1:1 is not Jesus.
    Why would you say that? Or rather, in what way would the Word not be properly called Jesus?

    God raised him from the dead, therefore he did not have immortality before this event, otherwise he would not die 2 Timothy 1:10.
    One portion of scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead, but Jesus also said that he would raise his own body from the dead. If your theory is correct, then these passages stand in disagreement, meaning that either Jesus or the apostle that that was speaking was in error. In case of a dispute, which one has greater authority and takes precedence in a disagreement: Jesus or the apostle?

    Spoiler
    The other theory might be that the scripture is always right... which would make Jesus and God equivalent references.

    John 2:19-22 KJV
    (19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    (20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    (21) But he spake of the temple of his body.
    (22) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

    In three days "I" (Jesus) will raise it up. Not in three days someone else will raise it up. And thanks to Peter in Acts 2, now you have Jesus identified as God.

    Acts 2:24 KJV
    (24) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.


    ... but didn't Peter also say that it was not possible that death could take hold of Jesus? There's only one way that it is not possible for death to take hold of a person, and that would be if he already possessed eternal life.

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    The Psalm speaks of "God" and "the gods." One of those Gods does the judging, whereas the other gods are the ones being judged as unrighteous. Which one of those terms did Jesus apply to himself, and which one did he apply to the Pharisees? In that same gospel, we see that Jesus had already identified himself as the Judge. In that psalm, that makes him the "God" with the capital G.
    At the time that this Psalm was written, it was Yahweh, God the Father that was going to judge the unrighteous Judges in Israel who were favouring the rich and despising the poor in their judgement. Ultimately Jesus will be the Judge, or Ruler when he returns to establish the Kingdom. At the time of his first coming, Jesus did not directly act as a Judge, but rather suffered at the hands of the Pharisees, Sadducees and the Romans.
    Why would you say that? Or rather, in what way would the Word not be properly called Jesus?
    John1:1 is before the Word was made flesh. Jesus is the name of the child born.
    One portion of scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead, but Jesus also said that he would raise his own body from the dead. If your theory is correct, then these passages stand in disagreement, meaning that either Jesus or the apostle that that was speaking was in error. In case of a dispute, which one has greater authority and takes precedence in a disagreement: Jesus or the apostle?
    The Scriptures cannot disagree with each other.
    The other theory might be that the scripture is always right... which would make Jesus and God equivalent references.
    In three days "I" (Jesus) will raise it up. Not in three days someone else will raise it up. And thanks to Peter in Acts 2, now you have Jesus identified as God.
    My understanding of this is that God the Father is speaking through Jesus. God the Father raised Jesus.
    Acts 2:24 KJV Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
    ... but didn't Peter also say that it was not possible that death could take hold of Jesus? There's only one way that it is not possible for death to take hold of a person, and that would be if he already possessed eternal life.
    If he had eternal life, then he could not die, but he did die. Acts 2:24 says that the grave could not hold him, and this is because he had done no sin, and thus God's righteousness necessitated that he would be raised from the dead. Because of Godís love and fellowship with His beloved Son also necessitated his resurrection and ascension to heaven to sit at God's right hand. Therefore God raised Jesus from the dead after three days.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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  17. #100
    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Nope it doesn't, go to the Hebrew or Aramaic. The originals were not in Greek.
    The Greek came later and distorted the verse. Disagree if you wish, but it is most likely.
    Keypurr, we've been through this before.

    If you want to make the claim that the originals were written in Hebrew or Aramaic, you have to show that:

    1) Greek was not a common language during Jesus' ministry
    2) the Gospels did not quote from the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament (what
    3) the inscription above Christ's head on the cross was not written in Greek
    4) the disciples did not speak greek
    5) none of the authors of the New Testament spoke Greek
    6) You also have to show why, if the New Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, the authors needed to translate what was said in those languages.

    Also, stop hiding behind a paywall.

    As far as I'm aware (and I could be wrong), the only way to read the AENT (which you so adore) is to purchase a copy, whereas most other versions are easily accessible through various free resources. It seems somewhat dishonest that you would use such a version, as it promotes the idea that "only a select few know the truth."

    No one wants to buy access to something they'll never use again.

    Either provide what the verse says in Aramaic, or provide a link to where it can be read and quoted from.

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  19. #101
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
    The word was toward God.
    You heretics always like to ADD to the Word of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  21. #102
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Right Divider,In the Psalm 33:6,9 and Isaiah 55:10-11 references, the spoken word and the wisdom and power behind that word take on the language of partial personification. In John 1:1 the Word is a full personification. It is only when we arrive at John 1:14 that this Word and the Wisdom behind this word is made into flesh, and the process is by the power of the Holy Spirit, that is the power of the Highest, God the Father coming upon Mary and conceiving in her womb, and as a result Jesus was born the Only Begotten of the Father, the Son of God, and his character and glory was revealed when mature as full of grace and truth. The alternative proposed by Trinitarians is very ambiguous and contradictory, and does not fit what is revealed concerning the birth of Jesus.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    You're a magician that can just mold the Word of God into anything that you like. Start believing it as written instead.

    The WORD WAS GOD is crystal clear and CANNOT be changed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  23. #103
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
    True or false.
    There is one true God.
    There are many false gods.

    Jesus' father is the one true God.
    There is one true God. He has never experienced death.

    Our Father is the one true God.

  24. #104
    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    There is one true God. He has never experienced death.

    Our Father is the one true God.
    He is the ONLY true God.
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

  25. #105
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    He is the ONLY true God.
    Jesus is God and is just as true as His Father.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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