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Thread: Is Jesus God?

  1. #76
    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Who do you trust? if you do not believe in the words of the master, your wrong.

    YHWH is not in your churches. Like Elvis, he has left the building. Follow your man made religion if you wish. I will trust in my God and my Lord Jesus Christ.

    May YHWH open your eyes to his words and remove you from the darkness of Satan's churches.
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Trevor, maybe you misunderstood my question when I asked about that "Trinity" reference. I meant "what does that have to do with this conversation?" I have made no reference to such a model nor made any similar implied statement. "To the glory of God the Father" is correct and fitting and not inconsistent with Jesus being the literal form of God manifest in the flesh.
    I am not sure what you would want here, as Jesus is not God the Father.
    Where do you perceive angels and judges being called God and by the unique names and titles of God? I think this would be a useful branch to explore, but you would need something stronger than the word "god" used within metaphor:
    You introduced the reference, but possibly you did not understand that “gods” in the following is referring to the Judges:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    In Psalm 82, who is it that judges among the gods? Jesus used that psalm to refer to himself after he had preached that he was the judge of all in the coming judgment.
    Psalms 82:1, 8 KJV
    (1) A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
    (8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
    The Judges were called “Elohim” because they represented God. The fact that the word usually translated “God”, “Elohim” is used for the Judges can be seen by comparing the following two translations:
    Exodus 21:6 (KJV): Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
    Exodus 21:6 (ASV 1901): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    If Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, that would also implies that he was not lower than the angels before. But yet even when he was made lower than the angels the angels still obeyed and served him, so is it speaking in terms of form or authority?
    Psalm 8:5 is speaking of the conception and birth of Jesus, when he was made.
    Trevor, if you don't mind a quick response: when we speak of Jesus in heaven above, how old would you say he is? Roughly two thousand years old, roughly six thousand years old, a finite millions of years old, or would you say he is literally eternal in the fullest sense of the term?
    He was given immortality after his resurrection. I will let you make your own deduction from that.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Right Divider, The point of Luke 1:35 is to state that when an individual correctly looked at Jesus, they would also realise that Jesus was the Son of God because God was his father and Mary his father by the conception and birth process. Trinitarians have difficulty with this verse because they believe that God the Son was somehow incarnated into the womb of Mary.


    When will you accept scripture?

    Jesus said that God was His Father LONG BEFORE HIS BIRTH as a MAN.

    Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    It's so simple that a child can understand it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  5. #79
    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Rosenritter, I am not sure what you would want here, as Jesus is not God the Father.
    What I am looking for is to follow the evidence where it leads, rather than trying to force the evidence into a ready made mold. I haven't demanded a Trinity model so there's no point in your argument against a Trinity model. A model is for the purpose of illustrating a set of features and is rarely perfect. For example, have you ever seen a perfect model of our solar system? A good model emphasizes shapes of orbits, or even relative sizes but a perfect model would be the original and unable to be grasped due to complexity.

    As to "Jesus is not the Father" I could also say that "my eye is not my head" and be mostly correct... because, after all, there is a reason why there are different words for eye and head. Yet it could also be true in another application, because if you hit me and only hit my head you might injure my eye and only my eye. The "head" usually symbolizes the man but our eye and our hand is also part of us as well.

    You introduced the reference, but possibly you did not understand that “gods” in the following is referring to the Judges:
    In that example there is no sensible confusion between God and the gods. The judges are not called "God" ... and even then, that word "elohim" is limited to Hebrew. "My Lord and my God" is in Greek.

    He was given immortality after his resurrection. I will let you make your own deduction from that.
    John does say "In the beginning was the Word" and with such an introduction the immediate assumption is usually "eternal" but I have heard different types of responses on this before and as such I know better than to assume someone's answer. Would you give me your answer?

    Spoiler
    By the way. how do you arrive at Jesus was given immortality after his resurrection? Is there a specific passage on your mind? He stated that he possessed immortality in the same sense as the Father as early as in John 5:26.

    John 5:26 KJV
    (26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    In that example there is no sensible confusion between God and the gods. The judges are not called "God" ... and even then, that word "elohim" is limited to Hebrew. "My Lord and my God" is in Greek.
    Jesus refers to this unique concept and our record of this is in Greek:
    John 10:34-36 (KJV): 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    Jesus uses the example of the Judges to answer their false accusation. Just as the Judges represented God, receiving the word of God and acting on God’s behalf and were called by God the Father “Elohim” or “gods”, so Jesus in his greater role as the Son of God represented God and acted on his behalf.
    John does say "In the beginning was the Word" and with such an introduction the immediate assumption is usually "eternal" but I have heard different types of responses on this before and as such I know better than to assume someone's answer. Would you give me your answer?
    The Word in John 1:1 is not Jesus.
    Spoiler
    By the way. how do you arrive at Jesus was given immortality after his resurrection? Is there a specific passage on your mind? He stated that he possessed immortality in the same sense as the Father as early as in John 5:26.
    Spoiler
    God raised him from the dead, therefore he did not have immortality before this event, otherwise he would not die 2 Timothy 1:10.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

  7. #81
    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Welcome back, Keypurr. Where've ya been!

    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Who do you trust? if you do not believe in the words of the master, your wrong.

    YHWH is not in your churches. Like Elvis, he has left the building. Follow your man made religion if you wish. I will trust in my God and my Lord Jesus Christ.

    May YHWH open your eyes to his words and remove you from the darkness of Satan's churches.
    Before you go off in your own direction, I was wondering perhaps if you could first answer my post from way back when, from the last time I saw you on here.

    Here's my post (click the blue arrow to go to the post where it was for context), to which I would very much appreciate an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Something that does not come from God.

    Again, you said "I go with (1)," which is this:

    "Something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."

    Whereas the alternative was this:

    "Something is good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)."

    In other words you yourself said that the standard for something being good does not come from God (he does not command it), but that it is something apart from him that is the standard for goodness.

    To which I then asked:



    So again, Keypurr:

    What is the standard God uses to determine if something is good? Is that standard greater than, equal to, or lesser than God?

    If it is lesser than God, then why does He use it as His standard, if it is below Him? Wouldn't it be better for Him to use Himself as the standard than to use something beneath Him?

    If it is equal to Him, then would not that contradict His claim "there is none beside Me"?

    If it is greater than He is, then wouldn't that mean that He is not God, but rather that the standard is that He uses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    The Word in John 1:1 is not Jesus.


    Of course it is. Who else do you think that John is writing about?

    Joh 1:14-18 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (15) John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. (16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    You're on the wrong side TrevorL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  11. #83
    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Welcome back, Keypurr. Where've ya been!



    Before you go off in your own direction, I was wondering perhaps if you could first answer my post from way back when, from the last time I saw you on here.

    Here's my post (click the blue arrow to go to the post where it was for context), to which I would very much appreciate an answer.
    I left for awhile to cool off and study his words.

    There is nothing greater than YHWH.

    Listen to your Lord when he tells you that his Father is the ONLY God. You need to deal with the fact that the early Church fathers had no idea what they were teaching.

    Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


    '
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

  12. #84
    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post


    Of course it is. Who else do you think that John is writing about?

    Joh 1:14-18 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (15) John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. (16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    You're on the wrong side TrevorL.
    Nope, it is you who lacks understanding. The WORD was not Jesus, IT was IN Jesus.
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Nope, it is you who lacks understanding. The WORD was not Jesus, IT was IN Jesus.
    The lying heretic is back. How not wonderful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Greetings again Right Divider,
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    When will you accept scripture?
    Jesus said that God was His Father LONG BEFORE HIS BIRTH as a MAN.

    Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    It's so simple that a child can understand it.
    Another verse that also uses the past tense and helps to understand this concept is:
    Matthew 25:34 (KJV): Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    When Jesus says that he “had” the glory for which he prays in John 17:5, he is merely asking for the glory which he knew was prepared for him by God from the beginning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Of course it is. Who else do you think that John is writing about?
    You're on the wrong side TrevorL.
    The Word in the beginning was God’s spoken word and the wisdom behind that word:
    Psalm 33:6,9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
    Isaiah 55:10-11 (KJV): For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    I left for awhile to cool off and study his words.

    There is nothing greater than YHWH.

    Listen to your Lord when he tells you that his Father is the ONLY God. You need to deal with the fact that the early Church fathers had no idea what they were teaching.

    Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


    '
    Keypurr, you didn't answer my question.

    Here's my post again. Could you address it directly, please?

    _______________________________________________

    Again, you said "I go with (1)," which is this:

    "Something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."

    Whereas the alternative was this:

    "Something is good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)."

    In other words you yourself said that the standard for something being good does not come from God (he does not command it), but that it is something apart from him that is the standard for goodness.

    To which I then asked:


    [see original post for the quoted text, linked to above]



    So again, Keypurr:

    What is the standard God uses to determine if something is good? Is that standard greater than, equal to, or lesser than God?

    If it is lesser than God, then why does He use it as His standard, if it is below Him? Wouldn't it be better for Him to use Himself as the standard than to use something beneath Him?

    If it is equal to Him, then would not that contradict His claim "there is none beside Me"?

    If it is greater than He is, then wouldn't that mean that He is not God, but rather that the standard is that He uses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Right Divider, Another verse that also uses the past tense and helps to understand this concept is:
    Matthew 25:34 (KJV): Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    When Jesus says that he “had” the glory for which he prays in John 17:5, he is merely asking for the glory which he knew was prepared for him by God from the beginning.
    It's really incredible how you deceive yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    The Word in the beginning was God’s spoken word and the wisdom behind that word:
    The Bible says that the WORD WAS GOD.... not "God's spoken word and the wisdom behind that word".

    You're just completely delusional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  20. #89
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Listen to your Lord when he tells you that his Father is the ONLY God.
    That is not what he said.

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    Over 5000 post club 1Mind1Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    That is not what he said.
    True or false.
    There is one true God.
    There are many false gods.

    Jesus' father is the one true God.

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