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Thread: Is Jesus God?

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    Greetings again glorydaz,
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Didn't have to grasp for what He already had.
    John 14:28 (KJV): Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. .

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son .
    Adam and Eve were created in the image and after the likeness of God, and as such they were in the form of God.] They grasped at being equal with God by partaking of the forbidden fruit. Jesus who was made a little lower than the Angels (Elohim) Psalm 8:5, and was because of this the Son of God, and thus in the form of God, did not grasp at equality, but became a servant, and voluntarily submitted to death. Please note that the same word “form” is used for “form of God” and “form of a servant” and this shows that this is speaking of his disposition of mind, not his pre-existence.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    A giant leap too far.

    They were NOT in the "form" of God. God formed them from the dust of the ground.

    God is spirit. God is a spiritual being, and man is a being of flesh and blood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again glorydaz, John 14:28 (KJV): Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. .

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    You shouldn't cherry pick verses that speak to our Lord's humanity. We all know He is just as much human as He is God.

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    Greetings again glorydaz,
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    A giant leap too far.
    They were NOT in the "form" of God. God formed them from the dust of the ground.
    God is spirit. God is a spiritual being, and man is a being of flesh and blood.
    Genesis 1:26–27 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. .
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You shouldn't cherry pick verses that speak to our Lord's humanity. We all know He is just as much human as He is God.
    This is where I disagree, and the title of the thread is asking this very question. If we ALL know, then there is no discussion. Jesus was a human, a man, the Son of God, not God the Son, the second person of the Trinity.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again glorydaz, Genesis 1:26–27 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. . This is where I disagree, and the title of the thread is asking this very question. If we ALL know, then there is no discussion. Jesus was a human, a man, the Son of God, not God the Son, the second person of the Trinity.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    There is a difference between man being created in God's image and likeness and the FORM we are in. Think about it.

    God is invisible. Man is not invisible.
    God is a spirit being. Man is a flesh and blood being.

    So perhaps you should give more thought about how man is made in God's image, because it sure isn't our substance.

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    Greetings again glorydaz,
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    There is a difference between man being created in God's image and likeness and the FORM we are in. Think about it.
    God is invisible. Man is not invisible.
    God is a spirit being. Man is a flesh and blood being.
    So perhaps you should give more thought about how man is made in God's image, because it sure isn't our substance.
    I have thought about it. The word “form” comes from Philippians 2 and some Trinitarians would have us accept that the Greek word should be translated as “very nature” such as the NIV. But they then give us that Jesus was in the “very nature of a servant”, which does not make much sense. You will need to explain how Adam and Eve were made in the image and after the likeness of God. I accept “form of God” as a summary of this, especially for Jesus, as the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again glorydaz, I have thought about it. The word “form” comes from Philippians 2 and some Trinitarians would have us accept that the Greek word should be translated as “very nature” such as the NIV. But they then give us that Jesus was in the “very nature of a servant”, which does not make much sense. You will need to explain how Adam and Eve were made in the image and after the likeness of God. I accept “form of God” as a summary of this, especially for Jesus, as the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Form (G3444) and image (G1504) and likeness (G3667) are three completely different words.

    Strong's g3444

    - Lexical: μορφή
    - Transliteration: morphé
    - Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    - Phonetic Spelling: mor-fay'
    - Definition: form, shape, outward appearance.
    - Origin: Perhaps from the base of meros (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature.
    - Usage: form.
    - Translated as (count): form (3).

    Strong's g1504

    - Lexical: εἰκών
    - Transliteration: eikón
    - Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    - Phonetic Spelling: i-kone'
    - Definition: an image, likeness, bust.
    - Origin: From eiko; a likeness, i.e. (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance.
    - Usage: image.
    - Translated as (count): image (18), likeness (2), an image (1), form (1), of an image (1).

    Strong's g3667

    - Lexical: ὁμοίωμα
    - Transliteration: homoióma
    - Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
    - Phonetic Spelling: hom-oy'-o-mah
    - Definition: (originally: a thing made like something else), a likeness, or rather: form; a similitude.
    - Origin: From homoioo; a form; abstractly, resemblance.
    - Usage: made like to, likeness, shape, similitude.
    - Translated as (count): likeness (4), a likeness (1), appearance (1).

    Are you trying to say that Jesus was not the epitome of being a servant?

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  12. #53
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    Trevor, there are a lot of different types of evidences that Jesus was literally God in the flesh. For example, in the Old Testament the LORD identifies himself as being "pierced" and as the "first and the last" and the "beginning and the end." The New Testament identifies he who was pierced as Jesus, and further identifies him as this "first and the last" and "beginning and the end."

    Zechariah 12:10 KJV
    (10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    John 19:36-37 KJV
    (36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
    (37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

    Revelation 1:7-8 KJV
    (7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    (8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Isaiah 48:11-13 KJV
    (11) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
    (12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
    (13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

    Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
    (17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
    (18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    There is no one single proof text, there so many and I haven't an exact count. In a recent discussion about "me whom they have pierced" someone suggested that the gospel of John and Zechariah had been corrupted by "Trinitarian" bias... but the Greek Septuagint from over a hundred years before Christ was born also read in the same manner. In the Old Testament, the LORD said that He is the one who is pierced, and in the New Testament John says that this was fulfilled when Jesus was pierced. If A = B, and B = C, therefore A = C.

    You may have some reasons to be cautious, but I think this is worth reconsideration.

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    Greetings again JudgeRightly,
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Form (G3444) and image (G1504) and likeness (G3667) are three completely different words.
    Yes.
    Are you trying to say that Jesus was not the epitome of being a servant?
    I agree that the disposition of mind of Jesus was as a servant, because as he grew and throughout his ministry he humbled himself to listen to the Father’s will and also to be submissive to a voluntary death. As he was also in the form of God, being the Son of God by birth, he could have chosen a different path.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Greetings Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Trevor, there are a lot of different types of evidences that Jesus was literally God in the flesh. For example, in the Old Testament the LORD identifies himself as being "pierced" and as the "first and the last" and the "beginning and the end." The New Testament identifies he who was pierced as Jesus, and further identifies him as this "first and the last" and "beginning and the end."
    You may have some reasons to be cautious, but I think this is worth reconsideration.
    My explanation of “first and the last” is a little difficult, but briefly commenting on “pierced”, in piercing Jesus, God the Father felt so identified with His Son, it was if they had attempted to pierce God the Father. When Paul sought to persecute the believers at Damascus, Jesus confronted him and asked why Paul was persecuting “me”, that is Jesus was so identified with these believers, it was as if Paul was persecuting Jesus himself.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again JudgeRightly, Yes. I agree that the disposition of mind of Jesus was as a servant, because as he grew and throughout his ministry he humbled himself to listen to the Father’s will and also to be submissive to a voluntary death. As he was also in the form of God, being the Son of God by birth, he could have chosen a different path.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    That is a FALSEHOOD.

    Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Jesus is the ETERNAL SON of God. He did not "become" the Son of God by birth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings Rosenritter, My explanation of “first and the last” is a little difficult, but briefly commenting on “pierced”, in piercing Jesus, God the Father felt so identified with His Son, it was if they had attempted to pierce God the Father. When Paul sought to persecute the believers at Damascus, Jesus confronted him and asked why Paul was persecuting “me”, that is Jesus was so identified with these believers, it was as if Paul was persecuting Jesus himself.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Me whom they have pierced; they weighed for my price

    I understand your differing interpretation concerning "pieced" - because sometimes an action against one party is applied personally to someone else. Such as in Matthew, when Jesus says "When you did this unto the least of my brethren, you did this unto me." But that wasn't an isolated instance either. Zechariah also applies the thirty pieces of silver as being the price of the LORD (rather than a sacrifice or a substitute.)

    Zechariah 11:10-14 KJV
    (10) And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
    (11) And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
    (12) And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
    (13) And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
    (14) Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

    By your reasoning (that you gave above) one instance may not be definitive, but repeated instances should be considered as lending additional weight to the possibility that it might be meant in the more literal sense.

    First and the Last

    When scripture uses "the first and the last" it does so three times Isaiah, and each time it is as a unique identification of the LORD, that He is God, and none other. It isn't a casual title or a transferable designation. Scripture uses the phrase seven times in total, with the latter four times in Revelation. These additional four times are also used in the same sense, as a title and unique identification, but it is mixed with other forms of identification as well.... including that He is He who rose from the dead.

    What would be the point of using that address if not for identification?

    Who Judges the World?

    If you were to read the Old Testament, who judges the world? If you were to read the New Testament, who judges the world? If the scriptures cannot be broken and have a common author, do we say that the texts disagree, or that the Judge is one and the same?

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    Greetings again Right Divider,
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    That is a FALSEHOOD.
    Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    Jesus is the ETERNAL SON of God. He did not "become" the Son of God by birth.
    A strong denial for something that is clearly taught in the Scriptures:
    Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    This glory that Jesus was to receive was in the plan and purpose of God. If the Trinitarian view was correct, it would say “the glory that I had with thee immediately before my incarnation”. The following indicates the glory that God predetermined before the creation:
    Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: .
    Notice that this Psalm that speaks of the creation, speaks in the past tense that God has crowned him with glory and honour, but at the time of writing this glory and honour and placing all things under his feet was still in prospect.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Me whom they have pierced; they weighed for my price
    I understand your differing interpretation concerning "pieced" - because sometimes an action against one party is applied personally to someone else. Such as in Matthew, when Jesus says "When you did this unto the least of my brethren, you did this unto me." But that wasn't an isolated instance either. Zechariah also applies the thirty pieces of silver as being the price of the LORD (rather than a sacrifice or a substitute.)
    But surely you will recognise that the thirty pieces of silver was the money paid to Judas to betray Jesus, and not to Yahweh, God the Father.
    Who Judges the World?
    If you were to read the Old Testament, who judges the world? If you were to read the New Testament, who judges the world? If the scriptures cannot be broken and have a common author, do we say that the texts disagree, or that the Judge is one and the same?
    God the Father will judge the world through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is still a man, even after his exaltation:
    Acts 17:30–31 (KJV): 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. .
    God is clearly distinguished here from the man who is appointed by God the Father to be the future Judge, our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Right Divider, A strong denial for something that is clearly taught in the Scriptures:

    This glory that Jesus was to receive was in the plan and purpose of God. If the Trinitarian view was correct, it would say “the glory that I had with thee immediately before my incarnation”.
    Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Trevor, "before the world was" indicates that Jesus was there when nothing else existed. It is a much stronger statement than "before John the Baptist" or "before Mary" because those types of references would leave room to speculate that Jesus might be a created angel. By saying "Before the world was" he is placed in the context of Genesis 1:1 (and John 1:1) when the Creator creates all things.

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