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Thread: WHY DID PAUL HAVE AND UNTIMELY BIRTH , 1 COR 15:8 ?

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Again, that's good, as long as we don't decide what the operating principles are or should be based on our theological system.
    Exactly what you have been doing, due to your "one size fits all."

    This is why there is no reasoning with your kind - due to your failure to see that yours is a "one size fits all" approach to the Scripture.

    Might as well just pick any one of the DIFFERENT instructions in Scripture, and run with it.

    Come on over to my house - we'll be building an Ark over the next year or so - in obedience to God in Genesis 6.

    Yo, cousin, let's get married, per Numbers 36.

    What say you, we track down those twelve tribes said to be scattered abroad, per Acts 8's persecution, who James begins his letter to, in James 1, what say you we go and join them in their Prophesied trying of their faith - we're all Israel, remember?

    Not to worry - Scripture is a "one size fits all."

    Like I said, there is no reasoning with those who hold to a "one size fits all" in disregard of the things that differ, in Scripture.

    Nevertheless, Romans 5:6-8 - in each, our stead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Isn't it worse to pick out things that should apply to us and say they don't? There's value in understanding who is being addressed in the text, surely. But the letters were passed around, too, so that a letter to the Corinthians would also end up in Ephesus, and a letter to the twelve tribes would also end up in Ephesus.

    "When this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans," (Colossians 4:16).

    "I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brethren," (1 Thessalonians 5:27).

    So when Peter talks of Paul's writings, he isn't just saying they make entertaining reading--those epistles were written to the same people Peter was writing to.

    [2Pe 3:15 KJV] And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    [2Pe 3:16 KJV] As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


    And based on these writings of Paul, where he list things that they were not to do, Peter confirms that his readers are supposed to be following what Paul wrote:
    [2Pe 3:17 KJV] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

    Finally summarizing with Paul's favorite word:
    [2Pe 3:18 KJV] But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    Let's not be the ones Peter is talking about, who wrest... scriptures, unto [our] own destruction.
    I already tried the scripture wresting, and I was left with too many unanswered questions. It wasn't until I realized that the message had changed and why it changed, that I was able to finally take those pieces off the shelf and put them where they belonged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    How do you know they are not Gentile Assemblies? When was the text written? Are you saying in 60-100 AD those churches were not mostly Gentile? How do you know this, since it seems to conflict with historical knowledge of those churches, and especially conflicts with Paul's writings.

    Did those churches suddenly revert to mostly Jewish, with Gentile proselytes, after Paul died? I've never heard of this idea, and I'm curious where you're getting it from?
    Hi and these assemblies were is ASIA , VERSE rEV 1:4 !!

    #2 23 God is going to kill with death in verse 23 !!

    #3 , And in Rev 3:16 , your WORKS can cause God to SPUE you out of his mouth , DOES that sound like the God of the DISPENSATION of Grace ??

    #4 Rev is written to JEWS ONLY !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    And Christ is the shepherd, and the door to the sheepfold, as well as the way, the truth, and the life, and the bread which came down from heaven....
    These are mostly references to things related to ISRAEL!!

    The "bread which came down from heaven" refers to the food (manna) that God gave to Israel to get them through the wilderness. When the Lord Jesus Christ returns, He will take Israel through the tribulation in the same way. This is EXACTLY why Jesus had THEM pray "give us this day our daily bread". He was preparing them for a time when they would not be able to buy or sell, hence the need for supernatural sustenance

    Regarding the sheep and shepherd.... that is completely ISRAEL. It is so clear from the law and the prophets that it's hard to believe that Churchianity keeps repeating the confusion about it.

    Jer 50:17 KJV Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.

    Eze 34:30-31 KJV Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. (31) And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    If Christ can be more than one thing, in the parlance of metaphors, surely the body of Christ is metaphorically flexible, too.
    Of course you say this, because you are trying to force a meaning that does not belong there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    It's not that I'm failing to understand. It's that you are failing to convince me.
    That is YOUR fault and not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    But if it makes you feel better to consider yourself the sufficient explainer, and myself as clueless, that's up to you, I suppose.
    I don't need to "feel better".

    I can tell you that I used to believe a lot of the same silliness of "Churchianity" that you do. But I've studied enough to see it for what it is, a myth.
    Last edited by Right Divider; December 3rd, 2018 at 07:22 PM. Reason: typo
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    I don't need to "feel better".

    I can tell you that I used to believe a lot of the same silliness of "Churchianity" that you do. But I've studied enough to see it for what it is, a myth.
    It's a problem that comes with being wed to a particular doctrine.

    I wasn't so wed that I didn't see holes in what I'd been told. And I wasn't so wed that I didn't FINALLY start to see why there were differences in what the Lord preached while on earth, and what He later revealed to the Apostle Paul. I would even take what He'd revealed while here among us over what Paul was preaching....until it dawned on me that Paul was preaching what the RISEN AND ASCENDED LORD had revealed to him. And why.

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  10. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and these assemblies were is ASIA , VERSE rEV 1:4 !!

    #2 23 God is going to kill with death in verse 23 !!

    #3 , And in Rev 3:16 , your WORKS can cause God to SPUE you out of his mouth , DOES that sound like the God of the DISPENSATION of Grace ??

    #4 Rev is written to JEWS ONLY !!

    dan p
    Well, Asia Minor, perhaps:


    and:
    "Turkey, by land mass, is positioned 95% in Asia and 5% in Europe. The Anatolia section covers the 95% while the 5% represents Thrace in the Balkan Peninsula located in Southeast Europe. Anatolia, also known as Asia Minor, Asiatic Turkey, or Anatolian Plateau, is a vast, rectangular peninsula between Europe and Asia.Apr 25, 2017"
    from: Is Turkey in Europe or Asia? - WorldAtlas.com


    Are you not at least a little bit afraid that He might spew you out of His mouth? A healthy fear of God is not altogether unwarranted, even in a dispensation of grace. Paul seemed to think there was some concern about his charges not inheriting the kingdom if the participated in sinful activity.

    If Revelation was written to Jews only, then somebody must have raptured all the non-Jews out of those churches in Asia Minor in John's day, because it wasn't written to churches of our day--at least not directly--nor churches in our future--at least not directly. Are you saying the rapture happened in the 1st century AD?

    If you're saying it was written to a church that is still future, then you are throwing aside all the effort some of you have gone to in observing how some New Testament letters were written specifically to the Jews of the first century. Let's be consistent, shan't we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Well, Asia Minor, perhaps:


    and:
    "Turkey, by land mass, is positioned 95% in Asia and 5% in Europe. The Anatolia section covers the 95% while the 5% represents Thrace in the Balkan Peninsula located in Southeast Europe. Anatolia, also known as Asia Minor, Asiatic Turkey, or Anatolian Plateau, is a vast, rectangular peninsula between Europe and Asia.Apr 25, 2017"
    from: Is Turkey in Europe or Asia? - WorldAtlas.com


    Are you not at least a little bit afraid that He might spew you out of His mouth? A healthy fear of God is not altogether unwarranted, even in a dispensation of grace. Paul seemed to think there was some concern about his charges not inheriting the kingdom if the participated in sinful activity.

    If Revelation was written to Jews only, then somebody must have raptured all the non-Jews out of those churches in Asia Minor in John's day, because it wasn't written to churches of our day--at least not directly--nor churches in our future--at least not directly. Are you saying the rapture happened in the 1st century AD?

    If you're saying it was written to a church that is still future, then you are throwing aside all the effort some of you have gone to in observing how some New Testament letters were written specifically to the Jews of the first century. Let's be consistent, shan't we?

    Hi and IF these assemblies are not FUTURE , that where are these ASSEMBLIES NOW ??\\

    Where are the 144,000 Jews m today ??

    Have you seen the SATAN imprisoned ?

    Have you seen a NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH ??


    Have you seen the NEW JERUSALEM ??

    Just to name a few ?

    The REVELATION is yet all FUTURE !!

    dan p

  12. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and IF these assemblies are not FUTURE , that where are these ASSEMBLIES NOW ??\\

    Where are the 144,000 Jews m today ??

    Have you seen the SATAN imprisoned ?

    Have you seen a NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH ??


    Have you seen the NEW JERUSALEM ??

    Just to name a few ?

    The REVELATION is yet all FUTURE !!

    dan p
    The churches were real churches when the Revelation was written. The letters in the first three chapters talk both of present conditions, not to mention past actions/works by the churches, and of future potential actions Jesus will take to bring the churches in line (those that needed it) as well as future rewards.

    Here are some examples

    Present conditions and past works:
    [Rev 2:2 KJV] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
    [Rev 2:3 KJV] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

    [Rev 2:9 KJV] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

    [Rev 2:13 KJV] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

    [Rev 2:19 KJV] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first.


    These are things that were known to Jesus in the time John wrote these words down. The seven churches don't really exist today. How then are these words (first 3 chapters) still to be considered future messages?

    There is an obvious discontinuity when Ch 4 begins. I won't argue whether those things (Ch 4 and beyond) are future, but the letters to the churches are definitely directed to existing churches in the first century AD.

    Saying anything else is a violation of the idea of Open Theism, by the way, since you have Jesus telling of actions of people that haven't been born yet and condemning them for those actions.

    And one major thing to glean from all this? John called the people from those seven churches, those seven, mostly Gentile, churches, "kings and priests".

    [Rev 1:4 KJV] John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
    [Rev 1:5 KJV] And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    [Rev 1:6 KJV] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    I'm sure @Right Divider will be pleased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Well, Asia Minor, perhaps:


    and:
    "Turkey, by land mass, is positioned 95% in Asia and 5% in Europe. The Anatolia section covers the 95% while the 5% represents Thrace in the Balkan Peninsula located in Southeast Europe. Anatolia, also known as Asia Minor, Asiatic Turkey, or Anatolian Plateau, is a vast, rectangular peninsula between Europe and Asia.Apr 25, 2017"
    from: Is Turkey in Europe or Asia? - WorldAtlas.com


    Are you not at least a little bit afraid that He might spew you out of His mouth? A healthy fear of God is not altogether unwarranted, even in a dispensation of grace. Paul seemed to think there was some concern about his charges not inheriting the kingdom if the participated in sinful activity.

    If Revelation was written to Jews only, then somebody must have raptured all the non-Jews out of those churches in Asia Minor in John's day, because it wasn't written to churches of our day--at least not directly--nor churches in our future--at least not directly. Are you saying the rapture happened in the 1st century AD?

    If you're saying it was written to a church that is still future, then you are throwing aside all the effort some of you have gone to in observing how some New Testament letters were written specifically to the Jews of the first century. Let's be consistent, shan't we?


    Hi and since it speaks to those in Asia , NO !

    Here what those of ANTI-OSAS fail to see !!

    In Gal 3:28 says in the last 6 words read , ARE / ESTI all one " in CHRIST " Jesus !!

    #1 ARE / ESTI is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD , and this means it is a FACT !!

    #2 When PLACED /BAPTIZED into the Body of Christ , the PRESENT TENSE means CONTINUOUS ACTION because all are " in Christ FOREVER !!

    #3 And this means OSAS !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and since it speaks to those in Asia , NO !

    Here what those of ANTI-OSAS fail to see !!

    In Gal 3:28 says in the last 6 words read , ARE / ESTI all one " in CHRIST " Jesus !!

    #1 ARE / ESTI is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD , and this means it is a FACT !!

    #2 When PLACED /BAPTIZED into the Body of Christ , the PRESENT TENSE means CONTINUOUS ACTION because all are " in Christ FOREVER !!

    #3 And this means OSAS !!

    dan p
    Just fyi, "Asia" back in the New Testament is what we today call Turkey.

    It wasn't called Turkey back then.

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  16. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and since it speaks to those in Asia , NO !

    Here what those of ANTI-OSAS fail to see !!

    In Gal 3:28 says in the last 6 words read , ARE / ESTI all one " in CHRIST " Jesus !!

    #1 ARE / ESTI is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD , and this means it is a FACT !!

    #2 When PLACED /BAPTIZED into the Body of Christ , the PRESENT TENSE means CONTINUOUS ACTION because all are " in Christ FOREVER !!

    #3 And this means OSAS !!

    dan p
    Since they were written to churches in Asia, we don't need to be consistent? I don't understand.

    Nor do I understand why writing to churches in Asia somehow tells us that John was only writing to Jews. (You might not have noticed, but there are a whole lot of people in Asia that aren't Jews.)

    Nor do I understand your point about OSAS. Was I somehow arguing against OSAS?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Just fyi, "Asia" back in the New Testament is what we today call Turkey.

    It wasn't called Turkey back then.
    Thanks, JR. I tried to hit the "Thanks" button, but it didn't have one for this post. I wonder why??

    Edited: Hmmm. The "Thanks" button appeared finally, and I was able to use it.
    Last edited by Derf; December 7th, 2018 at 04:59 PM.

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