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Thread: Justice Kavanaugh’s first test on abortion comes this week

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    one might argue that the unborn child's life is of greater value than the mother, as the unborn child has his whole life in front of him

    to illustrate: you come across a bad car wreck on an isolated road. The car holds two occupants - a middle-aged woman and a young child. Circumstances are such that you can only rescue either the mother or the child but not both. Which do you choose?

    I believe most people would choose the child.


    ever watch will smith's I Robot?
    The answer given many years ago is the mother should be saved. The thinking is that a newborn is a life at risk (a greater issue back then, with high infant mortality), while the mother's life is more certain.

    If the two are equal, one would be tempted to do nothing that would risk either one, since that would be murder. Even though the net result would be two deaths.

    What I am really driving at here is that often a false dichotomy being presented here. Either Abortion is Murder, or it is OK.

    Abortion can be wrong, even criminal, without being the same as murder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    You are speaking as a medical expert?
    Perhaps as an expert on 5th century medicine?
    Or an expert on midwives of the Central African Republic?

    I expected this reaction. Which is why my original post included this:
    We're not saying it can't happen; it can. However, it is never prior to the incident that we determine only one can survive.

    In the moment, we act to save both.

    Notice my point No. 2 is not dependent on No. 1. You deliver the baby. It's never necessary to stop that process in order to kill him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Abortion can be wrong, even criminal, without being the same as murder.
    How?

    The only situation you have described is medical complications where only one can be saved. Are you saying it is wrong, but not murder, to act in this scenario?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    The answer given many years ago is the mother should be saved. The thinking is that a newborn is a life at risk (a greater issue back then, with high infant mortality), while the mother's life is more certain.

    just a quick reference to my background - i worked for years in a regional center for neonatology, in which we devoted extraordinary resources and effort to saving the lives of sick infants, often grossly premature

    it galled to me to know that just across town the planned parenthood was deliberately murdering children more developed than many of those we were struggling to save.


    now i have to get back under my car

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    just a quick reference to my background - i worked for years in a regional center for neonatology, in which we devoted extraordinary resources and effort to saving the lives of sick infants, often grossly premature

    it galled to me to know that just across town the planned parenthood was deliberately murdering children more developed than many of those we were struggling to save.


    now i have to get back under my car
    This is such an insight into the mind of the pro-abort. They shriek about "rights" and a "woman's body," but when it comes to policy, they want to focus on rare, medical emergencies with a mind to push their emotionalism.

    Reality is, they just want to kill, regardless of the situation.

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    the exchange with quip yesterday was rewarding and I hope it continues - his focus was on "autonomy" - that a woman's "right" to choose to murder her child was an expression of her autonomy

    apparently that "autonomy" disappears after delivery

    still trying to figure that one out with him

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    How?

    The only situation you have described is medical complications where only one can be saved. Are you saying it is wrong, but not murder, to act in this scenario?

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    No. I am saying that abortion in general is wrong, but not murder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    No. I am saying that abortion in general is wrong, but not murder.
    It's premeditated murder.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    the exchange with quip yesterday was rewarding and I hope it continues - his focus was on "autonomy" - that a woman's "right" to choose to murder her child was an expression of her autonomy

    apparently that "autonomy" disappears after delivery
    Yeppers.

    Their solution to the problem is murdering children, but only before delivery.
    Their solution for convenience is murdering children, but only before delivery.
    Their solution for poverty is murdering children, but only before delivery.
    etc.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Yeppers.

    Their solution to the problem is murdering children, but only before delivery.
    Their solution for convenience is murdering children, but only before delivery.
    Their solution for poverty is murdering children, but only before delivery.
    etc.
    curious

    got to chew on this one

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    No. I am saying that abortion in general is wrong, but not murder.
    Why is it wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    This brings us to the question of cases where lives are at stake- one can save either the mother or the baby, at the expense of the other. Who do you save?
    The doctor in such cases should do everything he can to keep BOTH alive as long as possible.

    He should NEVER stop to kill one or the other in the process.

    Please don't hide behind the "fact" that this situation is rare or "never happens". It did happen in the past, and likely happens to this day in less developed parts of the world. Even as a thought experiment it is useful. Is the unborn child's life of the same value as that of the mother?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonahdog View Post
    Ah, but then you need to define "person". What are the characteristics of "human life" of "person"?
    Made in God's image. Oh wait, you don't believe in God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonahdog View Post
    Are you a sovereign citizen?
    Just ignore him. He's one of those odd "new ager" types of pagans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The doctor in such cases should do everything he can to keep BOTH alive as long as possible.

    He should NEVER stop to kill one or the other in the process.





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    to you as well. It is so easy to talk about what the doctor should do- but in much of the world there aren't doctors or hospitals available, and tough choices need to be made.

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