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Thread: Justice Kavanaugh’s first test on abortion comes this week

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonahdog View Post
    Ah, but then you need to define "person". What are the characteristics of "human life" of "person"?
    it's human

    and it's alive


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonahdog View Post
    Ah, but then you need to define "person". What are the characteristics of "human life" of "person"?
    Personhood is conferred by God at conception. It is only those seeking to dehumanize classes of people who define according to traits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    How would you define "human life" to avoid facing the fact that abortion is the ending of a human life?
    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    This brings us to the question of cases where lives are at stake...



    no, it doesn't


    I define human life as 1. human and 2. alive

    based on this definition, I have no trouble seeing that abortion is the ending of a human life

    your response to that was "It depends on how you define "human life"."

    How do you define human life to avoid the fact that abortion is the ending of a human life?



    do you deny that the developing embryo or fetus is human?

    do you deny that it's alive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Please remember that the Supreme Court works within a framework of the Constitution, laws, and precedents. So even a conservative court might not be able to accomplish what conservative citizens would like them to.
    Joe public citizens liberal or conservative aren't under the protection of governments restraint by constitutional law, only the sovereign private sector have that protection, so the supreme court can't actually hear the public out cry when their privileges are revoked or expanded while under foreign contract law for the debt to foreign bankers 1933, under administrators not constitutional judges, so like voting its all a big show to keep the illusion going that Joe public can assert rights it gave away at birth, certified and registration under contract to uncle scam Galatians 4:1. Abortion is a private affair of choice that is no body else's business ya or nay unless you have that privilege taken away then the administrators decide for the public sector not the supreme court of the land/body/Luke 17:21.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    The "ProLife" supporters have yet to inform the nation as to how they intend to enforce the repeal of Roe v Wade - should the young women of the nation decide not to conform to their moral dictates!
    Are you against rape? Should I/others decide not to conform to your moral dictate, against rape?

    Slower: Laws are an imposition, a dictation, of morality.

    And by the word "moron," in the dictionary, is your photo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    If abortion is murder, wouldn't it be right to take up arms and use lethal force to prevent abortion from happening? Indeed, wouldn't you be morally obligated to do such?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Depends.
    Depends on what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    Depends on what?
    Depends on your response to my question:
    Is it ever OK to deliberately kill a child?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    Joe public citizens liberal or conservative aren't under the protection of governments restraint by constitutional law, only the sovereign private sector have that protection, so the supreme court can't actually hear the public out cry when their privileges are revoked or expanded while under foreign contract law for the debt to foreign bankers 1933, under administrators not constitutional judges, so like voting its all a big show to keep the illusion going that Joe public can assert rights it gave away at birth, certified and registration under contract to uncle scam Galatians 4:1. Abortion is a private affair of choice that is no body else's business ya or nay unless you have that privilege taken away then the administrators decide for the public sector not the supreme court of the land/body/Luke 17:21.
    Are you a sovereign citizen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    If abortion is murder...
    if I force an abortion on a woman against her will, what is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    Why shouldn't, on these rare occasions, the attempt be made to save BOTH lives? Also, why use such rare occasions as an excuse for abortions when most are done for the reason of convenience.
    Please note:

    I am not promoting abortion, or claiming it is OK, or excusing it on the basis of these "rare occasions". Not at all. I am trying to show that abortion is criminal, without being exactly the same as murder.

    The reason I came up with this example is that the matter is discussed in ancient Jewish legal texts. There the call is made to save the mother's life, even if it means killing the child.

    Yes, it is always best to try and save both lives, but it isn't always possible, and the problem was more acute in ancient times- and in poor countries in the world today. Dying in childbirth was very common before modern times, and is still common in some countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Please note:

    I am not promoting abortion, or claiming it is OK, or excusing it on the basis of these "rare occasions". Not at all. I am trying to show that abortion is criminal, without being exactly the same as murder.

    The reason I came up with this example is that the matter is discussed in ancient Jewish legal texts. There the call is made to save the mother's life, even if it means killing the child.

    Yes, it is always best to try and save both lives, but it isn't always possible, and the problem was more acute in ancient times- and in poor countries in the world today. Dying in childbirth was very common before modern times, and is still common in some countries.
    There is never a reason to stop delivering the baby in order to kill him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    There is never a reason to stop delivering the baby in order to kill him.

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    Not true. If both the mother AND child will die otherwise- there is a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Not true. If both the mother AND child will die otherwise- there is a reason.
    Absolutely true.

    1. There is no way to guarantee that either will die, unless you're going to take a pair of scissors to one.
    2. The treatment for emergency-level complication in a pregnancy is delivery. Delivery is not intentional killing of the child. There is never a need to stop delivering the child in order to kill him. You just deliver him. Then you care for him as best you can.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Absolutely true.

    1. There is no way to guarantee that either will die, unless you're going to take a pair of scissors to one.
    2. The treatment for emergency-level complication in a pregnancy is delivery. Delivery is not intentional killing of the child. There is never a need to stop delivering the child in order to kill him. You just deliver him. Then you care for him as best you can.
    You are speaking as a medical expert?
    Perhaps as an expert on 5th century medicine?
    Or an expert on midwives of the Central African Republic?

    I expected this reaction. Which is why my original post included this:
    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    ...
    Please don't hide behind the "fact" that this situation is rare or "never happens". It did happen in the past, and likely happens to this day in less developed parts of the world. Even as a thought experiment it is useful. Is the unborn child's life of the same value as that of the mother?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Is the unborn child's life of the same value as that of the mother?
    one might argue that the unborn child's life is of greater value than the mother, as the unborn child has his whole life in front of him

    to illustrate: you come across a bad car wreck on an isolated road. The car holds two occupants - a middle-aged woman and a young child. Circumstances are such that you can only rescue either the mother or the child but not both. Which do you choose?

    I believe most people would choose the child.


    ever watch will smith's I Robot?

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