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Thread: God made them the vessels of wrath !

  1. #46
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    The vessels of wrath, whom God made, and fits them for destruction, yeah even eternal destruction, where made simply because it was Gods good pleasure Ep 1:5,9,11

    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasureof his will,

    Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Now I know these verses are specifically talking about reprobation of the wicked, but they do describe the sovereign Being of God"
    him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will To include reprobation of the vessels of wrath whom He created.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  2. #47
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Now God is the absolute First cause as to why some are elect and others are rejected. Now regarding the reprobate, even though the just ground for their damnation and destruction is their sins, yet its not their sins that are the antecedent cause, its the sovereign will of God. See nothing in time could have persuaded God to action, who is Eternal and outside of time. Hes influenced[if we can say that] by His Own absolute dominion over all things, yeah, even His creatures He created. He made all things for Himself to dispose of them as He so wills See Rom 9:21-22 ; Prov 16:4
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  3. #48
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him justly?
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him lovingly?
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him righteously?
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him kindly?

    IF Satan rebelled and then was flung to earth for the edification of the sinful elect and his LIFE (not FATE) was predestined as a vessel of wrath in response to his sinning the unforgivable sin, then all of creation can say that having a life created, predestined and predetermined to be a vessel of wrath is just and righteous and as kind and as loving as HE could be to such a one, letting the rain fall and the sun shine on him and his goats.

    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  4. #49
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    God gives the vessels of wrath existence to show His just wrath against their sin, according to His strict justice without which this Glory of His Righteousness would not have been displayed. This by the way should melt the hearts of the vessels of mercy into deep gratitude and humility since if God so pleased, they to could have been vessels of wrath !
    IF this is true then why must billions die to prove HIS justice and wrath. IS not one enough? Seems like this theology gives HIM little respect for life, wasting it like that.

    And if this is the only reason for their being damned then it is reasonable to suggest they could be saved IF HE WANT THEM TO BE SAVED, as it is written in 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23; Matthew 23:37 so the question "Why damn these billions and not others?" must be answered.

    It also implies that GOD cannot teach his children about HIS being Just in any other way than to condemn billions. Is HE really that narrow sighted and unimaginative? I don't think so. Does HE really need evil to teach HIS creation about righteousness? I don't think so either and I think the expression of such ideas about our GOD is a blasphemy.

    I believe in the idea that their condemnation is a righteous and just response to their having chosen to sin the unforgivable sin.


    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  5. #50
    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Now God is the absolute First cause as to why some are elect and others are rejected. Now regarding the reprobate, even though the just ground for their damnation and destruction is their sins, yet its not their sins that are the antecedent cause, its the sovereign will of God. See nothing in time could have persuaded God to action, who is Eternal and outside of time. Hes influenced[if we can say that] by His Own absolute dominion over all things, yeah, even His creatures He created. He made all things for Himself to dispose of them as He so wills See Rom 9:21-22 ; Prov 16:4

    Absolutely Brother, and Amen to #46 and #47 !

    God Purposed, or Sovereignly determined beforehand, to Create the Vessels of Wrath Rom. 9:22 to eternally torment them He prepared to be destroyed.

    Prov. 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    No, not annihilation, but with Everlasting Destruction 2 Thes. 1:9: The Everlasting Fire referred to here:

    Mat. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.


    And the same wicked Spoken of here:


    Ps. 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.


    Mat. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    ...but HE does not create evil...
    Not true. He said different:

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    ttruscot

    IF this is true then why must billions die to prove HIS justice and wrath.
    Thats Gods business ! You are wrong to question Him !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Nanja (February 24th, 2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Not true. He said different:

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
    I'm a stickler for context when people quote. How might the context inform us of God's work?
    Isaiah 45:1-10
    Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed: “I will go before you and level the exalted places, I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut through the bars of iron, I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the Lord, the God of Israel, who call you by your name. For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. “Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it. “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’? Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I'm a stickler for context when people quote. How might the context inform us of God's work?
    It lets us know that God creates evil, darkness and calamity.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    It lets us know that God creates evil, darkness and calamity.
    When God says,
    "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.", God is not saying He creates evil.
    God creates calamity within a world of rebellious humans. God ordains that the corrupt, rebellious, humans will accomplish his good and perfect will.
    It is incorrect and blasphemous to say that the perfect and holy God created evil. Evil happens when God's created beings break covenant with God the Creator. God ordained that angels and men could break covenant and sin, but God did not create evil itself.

  13. #56
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    menno

    Evil happens when God's created beings break covenant with God the Creator
    .

    So then God is responsible for those beings being created, which would break covenant with Him. Now if God so willed it He could have created those beings to never have broken covenant, nor even to have had the desire to. Do you believe that ?
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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  15. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    When God says,
    "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.", God is not saying He creates evil.
    Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7 King James' Version

    Actually, He DID.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7 King James' Version

    Actually, He DID.
    ESV
    "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things."
    Old King James mistranslated and you misunderstood.
    Last edited by MennoSota; February 25th, 2019 at 05:29 PM.

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    I take it you find calamity to mean: good.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

  18. #60
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7 King James' Version

    Actually, He DID.
    Yes, I agree that the verse can be interpreted this way and make GOD the author of moral evil as many (so called?) Christians believe. This evil creating God is very powerful, eh?, while the GOD who cannot make evil seems to be at his mercy....? But the fact that ra` has a dozen or more OTHER INTERPRETATIONS that exonerate YHWH from creating moral evil means that your focus on the god who creates moral evil to be suspect of being the product of a huge bias! Straw dog, buddy.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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