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Thread: God made them the vessels of wrath !

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    The problem with assuming that people are basically good is that it completely ignores the fact that ours is a fallen race, under the just condemnation from God, awaiting the sentence of death and eternal punishment. The reality is that God is not going to compare me to someone else, who is a fallen sinner like I am. Instead, God will measure me against the standard of his law, which is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). And when God measures me using the standard of his law, it will soon become clear that like everyone else descended from Adam, I cannot meet God’s standard of perfection. I am a sinner. I am under the sentence of death. How did this happen?

    This immediately raises the question of fairness. Is it fair for God to judge me against a standard I cannot possibly meet? The answer would be “no,” if we were to look at this question in a vacuum without any biblical context. The Bible teaches that Adam was not only the first human (from whom all humans are biologically descended), but that Adam was created holy and without sin. Adam was placed in Eden under the covenant of works with its condition, “do this (not eat from the forbidden tree) and live,” or “eat from the tree and die.” Adam chose the latter, bringing down the covenant curse of death upon the entire human race. People often agree with Ben Franklin’s famous adage that the only two things in life which are inevitable are death and taxes, both of which I might add, stem from human sin. Yet, the fact remains, death is not natural to the human race. Death is the consequence of the fall of Adam.

    When Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God immediately pronounced the covenant curse upon him. “And to Adam [God] said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Work became toil. Fruitful fields were filled with weeds and thistles. Child-bearing became labor. And even worse, Adam now faced the sentence of death. And so do we.

    Because Adam acted for us and in our place (by serving as our representative in Eden), we are as guilty before God for Adam’s act of rebellion as if we had been in Eden, personally rebelling against God as did our first father. The guilt of Adam’s sin was imputed or reckoned to us (Romans 5:12, 18-19). Not only did the fall of Adam render us guilty before God, we have all inherited a sinful nature from Adam, and it is from that sinful nature that our own particular acts of sin spring (Romans 7:5). We sin because we want to sin. In fact, we like to sin. This is a far cry from the notion that we are all basically good people who occasionally sin. Rather we are sinful people, whose sinful propensities are restrained by the grace of a merciful God.

    The Bible teaches that we are sinful by nature and by choice, and that we are not now, and never have been, innocent before God (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). As Paul recounts in Ephesians 2:1-3, we are dead in sin and by nature children of wrath. In Ephesians 4:17-19, Paul speaks of the effects of Adam’s fall upon us in the following terms. “You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.” The consequences of Adam’s fall are grave. Our thinking is futile, we are darkened in our understanding, we are alienated from God, and we seek to gratify our sinful nature rather than seek to please God.

    And all of this stems from Adam’s act of rebellion in Eden. As the Puritans so aptly put it, “in Adam’s fall, sinned we all.” Because Adam sinned, we are born with a sinful nature, already under the sentence of death, and unable to do anything to save ourselves.

    This is the consequence of Adam’s fall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The Bible teaches that Adam was not only the first human (from whom all humans are biologically descended), but that Adam was created holy and without sin.
    During that period, after God had created Adam, and before Adam sinned, while Adam was holy and without sin, what of all the rest of us? Were we not in Adam during that period? And, if we, all of us, were in Adam during that period, then, were we not (just as Adam was) holy and without sin until Adam sinned? Did God--during the period between the creation of Adam and Adam's sinning--hate any of those who were, during that period, in Adam? Did God ever hate any person who was holy and without sin, while that person was holy and without sin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    LOL, no Reformed theology says no such thing. Your projection is silly.
    Let me know when you wish to discuss Reformed theology.
    The theology says it plainly enough...it is the embarrassment of the people who believe it that forces them to deny that it is the plain meaning of the words, the only logical meaning.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Yet, the fact remains, death is not natural to the human race. Death is the consequence of the fall of Adam.
    What is sin the consequence of?

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    we are born with a sinful nature
    Sin is natural to humans, but death is not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The Bible teaches that Adam was not only the first human (from whom all humans are biologically descended), but that Adam was created holy and without sin.
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The Bible teaches that we are sinful by nature and by choice, and that we are not now, and never have been, innocent before God (Psalm 51:5; 58:3).
    So, Adam was created holy and without sin--innocent; but all the rest of us, even while we were in Adam, while he was holy and without sin, were not innocent before God? How could we have failed to be innocent before God while Adam was innocent before God?

    Oh, let's not forget Calvinism's cherished "We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners!" slogan. What about Adam? Did Adam sin because he was a sinner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    During that period, after God had created Adam, and before Adam sinned, while Adam was holy and without sin, what of all the rest of us? Were we not in Adam during that period? And, if we, all of us, were in Adam during that period, then, were we not (just as Adam was) holy and without sin until Adam sinned? Did God--during the period between the creation of Adam and Adam's sinning--hate any of those who were, during that period, in Adam? Did God ever hate any person who was holy and without sin, while that person was holy and without sin?
    What a tortured thought you have. Are you claiming that we have a period of time where we are "Adam" before the fall? If so, please share scripture that claims we are born like Adam before the fall and then choose later on to sin.
    Do you struggle with the covenant God made with man in the garden, which man broke, and therefore resulted in a curse upon all men? It seems that you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Because Adam acted for us and in our place (by serving as our representative in Eden), we are as guilty before God for Adam’s act of rebellion as if we had been in Eden, personally rebelling against God as did our first father.
    Here, the Calvinism huckster seems to be saying that we did not sin in Eden, when Adam sinned, but that, somehow, when Adam sinned, we became as guilty before God as we would would have become if we had sinned, in Eden, when Adam sinned.

    Yet, later on, the Calvinism huckster says:

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    As the Puritans so aptly put it, “in Adam’s fall, sinned we all.”
    Here, the Calvinism huckster seems to be saying that we did, indeed, sin in Eden, when Adam sinned.

    So which is it? Did we sin, in Eden, when Adam sinned, or did we not sin, in Eden, when Adam sinned? It cannot be both.

    The doctrine that we were made guilty of sinning by having, ourselves, sinned when Adam sinned is NOT the doctrine that we were made guilty of sinning, when Adam sinned, by a gratuitous imputation of sin. These two doctrines are necessarily averse one to another, and yet, the Calvinism huckster quoted above seems to be affirming both of them in the same paper!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Are you claiming that we have a period of time where we are "Adam" before the fall?
    I don't understand what (if anything) you are asking, here, inasmuch as I don't understand what (if anything) you are signaling by putting quotes around the name, Adam. If you meant to ask

    Are you claiming that we have a period of time where we are [the man] Adam before the fall?
    then I must needs answer "No. Don't be silly. A multitude of persons is not one person." But, what were you asking?

    Now, I ask you these questions:

    Were we in Adam before Adam first sinned?
    Were we in Adam while he was still innocent, holy, without sin, or were we not in Adam until after he first sinned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    What a tortured thought you have. Are you claiming that we have a period of time where we are "Adam" before the fall? If so, please share scripture that claims we are born like Adam before the fall and then choose later on to sin.
    Do you struggle with the covenant God made with man in the garden, which man broke, and therefore resulted in a curse upon all men? It seems that you do.
    When you, yourself, were in the garden of Eden, some 6,000 or so years ago, at the moment of the fall, and you sinned, why did you sin? Did you sin because you were a sinner? Why and when did you, yourself, become a sinner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Do you struggle with the covenant God made with man in the garden, which man broke, and therefore resulted in a curse upon all men? It seems that you do.
    When did you, personally, break a covenant God made with you, personally, in the garden? When did a curse come upon you, personally, as a result of your personally having broken a covenant God made with you, personally, in the garden?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    I don't understand what (if anything) you are asking, here, inasmuch as I don't understand what (if anything) you are signaling by putting quotes around the name, Adam. If you meant to ask



    then I must needs answer "No. Don't be silly. A multitude of persons is not one person." But, what were you asking?

    Now, I ask you these questions:

    Were we in Adam before Adam first sinned?
    Were we in Adam while he was still innocent, holy, without sin, or were we not in Adam until after he first sinned?
    Do you mean: Was the sperm that conceived us in Adam?
    No
    Was the curse from Adam breaking the covenant with God placed upon us as a part of the human race?
    Yes
    Psalm 51:5 ESV / 264 helpful votesHelpful Not Helpful

    Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Psalm 58:3 ESV / 186 helpful votes

    The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

    Ecclesiastes 7:20 ESV / 179 helpful votes

    Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

    Romans 5:12 ESV / 173 helpful votes

    Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

    Romans 3:23 ESV / 154 helpful votes

    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    When did you, personally, break a covenant God made with you, personally, in the garden? When did a curse come upon you, personally, as a result of your personally having broken a covenant God made with you, personally, in the garden?
    Adam as the father of mankind broke the covenant and the curse is passed on through the ages.
    Do you imagine that you alone are a new being apart from humanity?
    I find it interesting to read your rants as though you think you are sinless and not judged guilty by your Creator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Do you mean: Was the sperm that conceived us in Adam?
    No. I don't mean that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Do you mean: ... Was the curse from Adam breaking the covenant with God placed upon us as a part of the human race?
    No. I don't mean that.

    I'm asking: During the time between when Adam was created and the time when Adam first sinned (some 6,000 years ago, in the garden of Eden), were we all in Adam, or were we not, at that time, in Adam?

    Calvinism hucksters go about chanting "All sinned in Adam!", and I, for one, would like to know exactly when, in history, in time, that event of all sinning in Adam is supposed to have occurred. They do say "All sinned" (past tense), not "All sin" (present tense), nor "All shall sin" (future tense); so, they mean some time in the past. So, when? I'm also trying to find out if anyone other than Adam, himself, sinned at the time when Adam, himself, sinned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Adam as the father of mankind broke the covenant and the curse is passed on through the ages.
    So, you didn't break the covenant, but Adam broke the covenant? Yet, even before you were ever conceived, you were cursed for the breaking of a covenant that you had never even broken?

    It's a simple question:

    Did you, or did you not, personally, sin, and thereby break the covenant, at the same time that Adam sinned, and thereby broke the covenant, in the garden of Eden? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Do you imagine that you alone are a new being apart from humanity?
    No. Do you?


    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I find it interesting to read your rants as though you think you are sinless and not judged guilty by your Creator.
    Ah, MennoSota, I like that you call Calvinism-damning questions you know you can't answer, "rants".

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