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Thread: God made them the vessels of wrath !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Yes, God determined beforehand to create a portion of mankind for His Purpose of eternally punishing them for their sins.


    2 Thes. 1:9

    Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


    They were eternally cursed.


    Mat. 25:41, 46

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    amen. and good point here:

    They were eternally cursed.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    amen. and good point here:

    TY ! Indeed they were eternally cursed !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him justly?
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him lovingly?
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him righteously?
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him kindly?

    IF Satan rebelled and then was flung to earth for the edification of the sinful elect and his LIFE (not FATE) was predestined as a vessel of wrath in response to his sinning the unforgivable sin, then all of creation can say that having a life created, predestined and predetermined to be a vessel of wrath is just and righteous and as kind and as loving as HE could be to such a one, letting the rain fall and the sun shine on him and his goats.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him justly?
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him lovingly?
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him righteously?
    IF Satan was created as a vessel of wrath before his fall, then who can say that GOD treated him kindly?

    IF Satan rebelled and then was flung to earth for the edification of the sinful elect and his LIFE (not FATE) was predestined as a vessel of wrath in response to his sinning the unforgivable sin, then all of creation can say that having a life created, predestined and predetermined to be a vessel of wrath is just and righteous and as kind and as loving as HE could be to such a one, letting the rain fall and the sun shine on him and his goats.
    It fascinates me to see you judge God with a cluelessness as to what you are doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    It fascinates me to see you judge God with a cluelessness as to what you are doing.
    The only answer to my questions is; Satan was never CREATED as a vessel of Wrath!!! It is those who think that GOD creates evil and condemns evil not chosen by their free will that supposes the answer to these questions are: Sure HE can do that and all is fine in the world!!!

    GOD gave Satan et al LIVES created and predetermined to fulfill their freely chosen decision to be reprobate in HIS sight, lives, not created fates, as (designed to be) vessels of wrath.

    I am fascinated by your lack of perception about my meaning and can only believe you are deliberately missing my point.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    The only answer to my questions is; Satan was never CREATED as a vessel of Wrath!!! It is those who think that GOD creates evil and condemns evil not chosen by their free will that supposes the answer to these questions are: Sure HE can do that and all is fine in the world!!!

    GOD gave Satan et al LIVES created and predetermined to fulfill their freely chosen decision to be reprobate in HIS sight, lives, not created fates, as (designed to be) vessels of wrath.

    I am fascinated by your lack of perception about my meaning and can only believe you are deliberately missing my point.
    I do not think God creates evil. I do believe that God allows evil to exist. (How would we know what is good if there were no evil?)
    God could have never allowed Satan to fall. God could have never allowed Adam and Eve to fall. But, God did allow it. God chose to allow it. God never tells us why He chose to allow it. God just did and we must accept it was God's perfect and good choice to allow sin to happen.
    Romans 9:20 expresses it best.

    But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I do not think God creates evil. I do believe that God allows evil to exist.
    It is a sophistry to say HE creates us evil in Adam but HE does not create evil or evil people. In this theology there was no evil named me but after my creation there was a new person, me, who was evil...therefore by no choice of my own, HE created me evil BY THE METHOD OF making me human in Adam...just too bogus! If HE did not want to create a new evil person, HE could have created me as a Martian in all the innocence Adam supposedly had. Or even as a new race of human or as individual humans personally INDEPENDENT in our innocence like the angels, ie NO “racial moral solidarity” which means that we would have to make all our own moral choices; no one else can make our moral choices for us and we cannot be held accountable for someone else's evil choices, like the angels! Concept...

    Well, to me that sounds like Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent... even if that parent is Adam! WE do not die for, in or because of Adam's sin: Jeremiah 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity. It is already is scripture - why does orthodoxy demand we believe a theology contrary to this scripture just because we are supposed to believe that we are CREATED, not sown, in sin?

    Face it, if you believe that GOD does not create evil then you have to find an alternative to our being created in Adam's sin or sinful in any way or with a sinful propensity of any kind or any of the theo-babble that this blasphemy spouts to justify itself.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    It is a sophistry to say HE creates us evil in Adam but HE does not create evil or evil people. In this theology there was no evil named me but after my creation there was a new person, me, who was evil...therefore by no choice of my own, HE created me evil BY THE METHOD OF making me human in Adam...just too bogus! If HE did not want to create a new evil person, HE could have created me as a Martian in all the innocence Adam supposedly had. Or even as a new race of human or as individual humans personally INDEPENDENT in our innocence like the angels, ie NO “racial moral solidarity” which means that we would have to make all our own moral choices; no one else can make our moral choices for us and we cannot be held accountable for someone else's evil choices, like the angels! Concept...

    Well, to me that sounds like Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent... even if that parent is Adam! WE do not die for, in or because of Adam's sin: Jeremiah 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity. It is already is scripture - why does orthodoxy demand we believe a theology contrary to this scripture just because we are supposed to believe that we are CREATED, not sown, in sin?

    Face it, if you believe that GOD does not create evil then you have to find an alternative to our being created in Adam's sin or sinful in any way or with a sinful propensity of any kind or any of the theo-babble that this blasphemy spouts to justify itself.
    Are humans born perfect like Adam and Eve in the garden?
    The corruption is hard wired from Adam to all his descendants. God calls it "the curse."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Are humans born perfect like Adam and Eve in the garden?
    Do you keep twisting my words to try to catch me out? Do you not pay attention to what you (supposedly) read?

    I believe:
    Only sinners are sown into the earth, Matt 13:36-39, Adam and Eve included.*

    All conceived or born on earth are sinners already; some not condemned because they are sinful believers and others condemned already because they have never believed. Jn 3:18.

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The corruption is hard wired from Adam to all his descendants. God calls it "the curse."
    I offer verses as to why GOD cannot create us evil in Adam and you offer me orthodox platitudes, no Biblical support in the least.

    * Every person CREATED in GOD'S image was created perfectly ingenuously innocent with a free will and the perfect ability and opportunity to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally righteous by faith or to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally evil by a faith that the unforgivable sin would bring them the best life possible. OUR CREATION WAS NOT OUR CONCEPTION NOR BIRTH!
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    ttruscott wrote:
    * Every person CREATED in GOD'S image was created perfectly ingenuously innocent with a free will and the perfect ability and opportunity to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally righteous by faith or to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally evil by a faith that the unforgivable sin would bring them the best life possible. OUR CREATION WAS NOT OUR CONCEPTION NOR BIRTH!
    Please provide scripture for this. I want to see the tortured passages you pretzel in order to make this statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted
    * Every person CREATED in GOD'S image was created perfectly ingenuously innocent with a free will and the perfect ability and opportunity to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally righteous by faith or to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally evil by a faith that the unforgivable sin would bring them the best life possible. OUR CREATION WAS NOT OUR CONCEPTION NOR BIRTH!
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Please provide scripture for this. I want to see the tortured passages you pretzel in order to make this statement.
    MORE verses supporting GOD is HOLY, that is, HE has no evil in HIM nor can HE bring it forth from HIS holiness:
    1 John 2:16 For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. To create us with a sin nature means that all these things comes for our nature as HE created it. This verse denies that very openly.

    Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. Is 'heart' another name for 'human nature' or 'sinful nature'? Then you know what I think...

    Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. The flesh and the Spirit are contrary to each other, they are in conflict! One cannot produce the other as a fulfillment for any purpose whatsoever. How is it reasonable to think GOD creates that which HE is in conflict with...? GOD's Kingdom is not divided by the creation of evil as it would be IF HE created it: Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. in the context that Satan will not cast out demons which must extrapolate to therefore Christ would never be involved with creating evil.

    IF it is blasphemous to say Jesus cast out demons by the finger of Satan, how much more to say that HE created Satan's evil and all evil in existence? And this is also in the context of: 23 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

    Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. If these things are outside of the Kingdom of God then GOD as the HIGH KING cannot nor would not (if HE could) ever create them or the impulse to do them or a nature that would inevitably lead to them. And does not the creation of evil create dissensions, factions within HIS Kingdom??? Duh, it suddenly creates eternal evil enemies but no dissensions or factions??? <headshake, facepalm>

    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. THESE are the things GOD creates - wherein is there any place for sin and evil to be created?

    Any verse you can find to argue HE created evil is INTERPRETED WRONGLY for sectarian purposes and such is a blasphemy against HIS Holiness.

    We are only guilty of sin we chose - GOD did not make us evil in Adam.
    We are conceived and born as sinners,
    ergo, we chose to rebel against GOD before our conception, birth.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    MORE verses supporting GOD is HOLY, that is, HE has no evil in HIM nor can HE bring it forth from HIS holiness:
    Verses you've already refused to exegete to avoid having the contaminate your philosophy...

    1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. Surely this means that HE cannot do or create evil in any way by any method any more than a match can be struck and darkness come out and fill a room! If you think this verse means something else I'd love to hear what that is but please, no more theology proving that creating us as men in Adam is NOT creating us to be sinners and evil.

    Do we believe Mark 3:23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." ? Is not the holy side of this syllogism IF GOD drives our Satan's evil, how can HE create the evil HE hates? IF GOD hates wickedness: and has no wickedness in HIM, Psalm 92:15 proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.” and Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You., how can we say that HE created wicked people by having them born as men in Adam without being a house divided? Both things cannot be true at the same time because they are opposites. IF HE cannot dwell with the wicked, how can HE have created them / us, especially HIS Bride, as evil in Adam?

    Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Christ is good so cannot create evil people by making them human in Adam's sin, especially those HE chose before the foundation of the world to be HIS Bride!!! What foolishness is this?? James 3:11 Can both fresh water and bitter water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Though this is about words, how much more is it about the creation of people who are more important than words?

    Once we decide that the doctrine of inherited sin is blasphemy against HIS loving justice, only then will we ever be open to the truth of how we became sinners ie where our depravity came from.1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. Surely this means that HE cannot do or create evil in any way by any method any more than a match can be struck and darkness come out and fill a room! If you think this verse means something else I'd love to hear what that is but please, no more theology proving that creating us as men in Adam is NOT creating us to be sinners and evil.

    Do we believe Mark 3:23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." ? Is not the holy side of this syllogism IF GOD drives our Satan's evil, how can HE create the evil HE hates? IF GOD hates wickedness: and has no wickedness in HIM, Psalm 92:15 proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.” and Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You., how can we say that HE created wicked people by having them born as men in Adam without being a house divided? Both things cannot be true at the same time because they are opposites. IF HE cannot dwell with the wicked, how can HE have created them / us, especially HIS Bride, as evil in Adam?
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    MORE verses supporting GOD is HOLY, that is, HE has no evil in HIM nor can HE bring it forth from HIS holiness:
    1 John 2:16 For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. To create us with a sin nature means that all these things comes for our nature as HE created it. This verse denies that very openly.

    Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. Is 'heart' another name for 'human nature' or 'sinful nature'? Then you know what I think...

    Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. The flesh and the Spirit are contrary to each other, they are in conflict! One cannot produce the other as a fulfillment for any purpose whatsoever. How is it reasonable to think GOD creates that which HE is in conflict with...? GOD's Kingdom is not divided by the creation of evil as it would be IF HE created it: Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. in the context that Satan will not cast out demons which must extrapolate to therefore Christ would never be involved with creating evil.

    IF it is blasphemous to say Jesus cast out demons by the finger of Satan, how much more to say that HE created Satan's evil and all evil in existence? And this is also in the context of: 23 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

    Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. If these things are outside of the Kingdom of God then GOD as the HIGH KING cannot nor would not (if HE could) ever create them or the impulse to do them or a nature that would inevitably lead to them. And does not the creation of evil create dissensions, factions within HIS Kingdom??? Duh, it suddenly creates eternal evil enemies but no dissensions or factions??? <headshake, facepalm>

    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. THESE are the things GOD creates - wherein is there any place for sin and evil to be created?

    Any verse you can find to argue HE created evil is INTERPRETED WRONGLY for sectarian purposes and such is a blasphemy against HIS Holiness.

    We are only guilty of sin we chose - GOD did not make us evil in Adam.
    We are conceived and born as sinners,
    ergo, we chose to rebel against GOD before our conception, birth.
    No one is stating that God is evil.
    What is stated is that sin is passed on...like a virus...via Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    No one is stating that God is evil.
    What is stated is that sin is passed on...like a virus...via Adam.
    Still trying to play ping pong with a pool cue eh?

    IMHCO, this theology does claim GOd is evil:
    To say sin is passed on, like a virus from Adam is to say
    1. GOD made it that way or it would not be that way;
    2. GOD wanted us to be sinners or He wouldn't have made us in Adam but in some other manner;
    3. GOD created us as sinners by using Adam to make us sinners;
    4. Only an evil GOD can create evil...

    The answer is NOT that a living righteous GOD created us evil people in Adam but that a loving righteous GOD created us ingenuously innocent and gave us a choice to become holy or evil by our own free will by faith in HIM or by rejecting HIM as an object of our faith. Period. HIS creatures created evil, your sophistries notwithstanding.

    You theology says that GOD created evil people by making them human (mine does not say this) and your blinders that make it impossible for you to even look at such an idea are a mile wide.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    ttruscott wrote:
    You theology says that GOD created evil people by making them human (mine does not say this) and your blinders that make it impossible for you to even look at such an idea are a mile wide.
    LOL, no Reformed theology says no such thing. Your projection is silly.
    Let me know when you wish to discuss Reformed theology.

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