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    Limited atonement destroyed

    This verse destroys limited atonement:

    But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)

    Bryson says even Calvin’s commentary admits:

    “It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ”

    (The Dark Side of Calvinism, p.162).

    https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Cal.../dp/1931667888
    Last edited by GregoryN; October 10th, 2018 at 11:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    This verse destroys limited atonement:

    But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)
    You apparently do not understand the verse in question.

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (KJV)

    The "Lord {δεσποτης} that bought them" in the passage is not referring to Jesus Christ {κυριος} but to God the Father.

    The word used for Lord therein expresses of the power which masters have over their servants, and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the Father, whenever applied to a divine person, as in Luke 2:29 and from the parallel text in Judges 1:4, where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ.

    By whom these persons are said to be "bought" the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended. Christ is not here at all spoken of; nor is there one syllable of His dying for any persons, in any sense whatever. This is one of the more anti-Arminian verses in Scripture, not related to the atonement of Jesus Christ, so it is always bemusing that the anti-Calvinist would appeal to it as some defeater of limited atonement.

    The word "bought" regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these reprobate men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord, both by words, and by works, turning the doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness, being disobedient and reprobate to every good work. See Deuteronomy 32:6 from where this phrase is borrowed, and to which it manifestly refers: "do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise! is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?"

    See also 2 Peter 2:12 and compare with Deuteronomy 32:5. Note also that the persons Peter writes to were Jews, who were called the people the Lord had redeemed and purchased, Exodus 15:13 and so were the first false teachers that rose up among them; and therefore this phrase is very applicable to them.

    In other words,
    "Those Jews who reject Christ are rejecting the God of their Fathers, who ransomed them from bondage in Egypt".


    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Bryson says even Calvin’s commentary admits:

    “It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ”
    Bryson's anti-Calvinist crusade with CCA is well-known. Perhaps you and he should actually read the sermon from wherein this quote is liberally lifted:
    Sermon VI - 2 Tim. 2:19

    I suspect not a few who cavil about Calvinism have even read the man's sermons, nor fully apprised themselves of his full corpus of works. No, they simply prefer to quote mine from them, never doing their due diligence to take every word captive for the glory of God.

    Like you, Bryson's assumption that 2 Peter 2:1 is speaking about the atonement of Our Lord Jesus Christ is nonsense and only illustrates the often superficiality of the anti-Calvinist.

    Given what you have written at this site, the bravado present in your post above serves to bolster the overwhelming opinion that you really do not know what you are talking about on any matters of Scripture. The passage in question speaks directly to your current state of affairs, sir. Take heed.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    This verse destroys limited atonement:

    But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)

    Bryson says even Calvin’s commentary admits:

    “It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ”

    (The Dark Side of Calvinism, p.162).

    https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Cal.../dp/1931667888
    Dear Gregory: I know of only one passage of Canon that expresses "limited" in relation to the unlimited One!

    "You have limited the Holy One of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    This verse destroys limited atonement:

    But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)

    Bryson says even Calvin’s commentary admits:

    “It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ”

    (The Dark Side of Calvinism, p.162).

    https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Cal.../dp/1931667888
    That verse says nothing about souls being bought by Jesus Christ blood, you are imposing that ideal into the verse not good !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Another verse that absolutely destroys limited atonement:

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 Jn.2:2)

    Another verse which Calvinists have to - explain away - and twist to jam the round puzzle piece into the square hole of Calvinism.
    Last edited by GregoryN; October 13th, 2018 at 02:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Another verses that absolutely destroys limited atonement:

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)
    No, rather another example demonstrating your inability to interpret Holt Writ. You merely respond you do not like the answer for various personal cavils about whom the answer came.

    Round two:

    There is an intrinsic worth of Our Lord's atonement. The death of the Son of God is the only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sin, and is of infinite worth and value, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world.

    Accordingly, any discussion of the atonement will inevitably come down to a discussion of its "limitations," if we are to speak of efficacy over against worth.

    If the atonement actually effects a work, then the person worked upon is atoned for. If the atonement is effectual for all men without exception, then all men without exception have been absolved. No one has any sins to account for, because the whole sin-debt has been paid. Hell therefore is empty.

    If hell is not empty, then the atonement isn't universal. So then, what "limitation" has been imposed? Has the atonement been limited as to its power, or its extent? Many doctrinal positions limit the atonement's power. There are a number of explanations as to how, but it boils down to this: God has made man savable by virtue of Christ's propitiation, but the "powerful blood" does not atone unless some man claims it. The power-in-the-blood is potential, until a man throws the switch. This view often is referred to as hypothetical universalism, for it it hypothetically possible that all men are able to "throw the switch" and be saved. It is also hypothetical universalism in the negative, for it was hypothetically possible, before the first man "threw the switch," for all men to "not throw the switch." Given that we know from Scripture some actual named person are indeed saved, this negative hypothetical universalism is no longer relevant to the discussion.

    In the scenario above, the propitiation of Jesus Christ saves no one by its own virtue. Statistically it saves some, but it might have saved none. The blood of Jesus was not poured out and sprinkled at the cross for anyone in particular, even a specific number and specific names. It is simply precious in God's sight, and also in the sight of anyone who happens to impute high-value to it. And that human judgment, in effect, renders the atonement effectual individually for him.

    Consider an alternative...

    On the other hand, the view (my view) that "limits" the atonement's extent, but not its power, reckons the death of Jesus was intentional and purposeful for a specific number and specific names. The blood of Christ powerfully and effectually cleanses and reconciles a specific man to God in the act itself. The sacrifice of Christ doesn't make men savable; it saves the elect (a specific multitude of named persons no man can number). Statistically the blood saves all for whom it was shed; it could not have saved one less.

    John's intent in speaking as broadly as he does, "...but also for the sins of the whole world," is to eliminate exclusivity from the minds of his hearers. Jesus is not only "the propitiation for OUR sins," here in this church, or in this small corner of the world, or for just the Jewish audience to whom he was speaking. No, he turns away the wrath of God for people of every stripe all over the world. Red, Yellow, Black, White; in every language, in every nation. The worth of the sacrifice is infinite, and might have satisfied for ten-thousand worlds worse than ours. The efficacy of the atonement is for this world (and not for demons), and its sweep is fully "as far as the curse is found," yes, to the earth's remotest end.

    Our Lord declared, John 3:36 ,"...he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." If there is no limit set to the power of Christ's propitiation (hilasmos, turning aside of wrath), then how can this statement be true, assuming Christ tasted death for every man in exactly the same sense (Heb. 2:9)? Do people go to hell, yet having all their sins forgiven? On what basis, then?

    If the power is limited, then salvation is only potential, and the choice is "up to us." If the power remains unlimited (able to save to the uttermost), but the scope is limited to "those who come to him by faith," who were "chosen in him before the foundation of the world," then the only question that remains is, "To what world is John referring?" Determining the "world" of any particular discourse is part of the responsibility of the reader / interpreter. Does it make sense to think that the "world" means every atom of creation? Does it make sense to think that the "world" refers to every living soul in all history (past, present, future), down to the zygote? Are there cogent reasons to think that John is not speaking in terms of individuals; but rather in aggregate, generalized, or comparative terms?

    AMR
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    gregn

    Another verses that absolutely destroys limited atonement:

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)
    That verse applies to Gods Sheep/Elect. It cant apply to them under Gods wrath like these Jn 3:36

    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    How can the wrath of God be abiding on those Christ is their propitiation with God ? Explain that. You must be ignorant to what propitiation means.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
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    Yet another verse that clearly refutes limited atonement:

    "For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and MEN, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

    Calvinists, OTOH, don't have a single verse saying Christ died "ONLY" for some men or a chosen few/elect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Yet another verse that clearly refutes limited atonement:

    "For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and MEN, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

    Calvinists, OTOH, don't have a single verse saying Christ died "ONLY" for some men or a chosen few/elect.
    More of the same evidences of a lack of proper interpretation.

    Let me save you some time...

    Round Three, Four, Five, etc.

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4880617

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Yet another verse that clearly refutes limited atonement:

    "For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and MEN, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6).


    Calvinists, OTOH, don't have a single verse saying Christ died "ONLY" for some men or a chosen few/elect.
    All the elect/sheep He gave Himself for, and to them by the Spirit in them it shall be testified.

    Also that word all simply means all of the many, Notice Matt 20:28

    Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    Calvinists, OTOH, don't have a single verse saying Christ died "ONLY" for some men or a chosen few/elect
    Theres a verse stating exactly who Christ stated He died for specifically Jn 10:11

    11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


    So to say He gave His life for any beyond the Sheep is merely conjecture and without scripture support.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post

    So to say He gave His life for any beyond the Sheep is merely conjecture and without scripture support.
    It's the plain teaching of the Scriptures:

    "For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and MEN, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD. (1 John 2:2)

    For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the UNGODLY. (Rom.5:6)

    “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . . . God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (Jn.3:16-17)

    For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. (Rom.11:32)

    The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)

    For the Son of Man came to seek and to save that having been lost.(Lk.19:10)

    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death, having been crowned with glory and with honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. (Heb.2:9)

    14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for all, therefore all died. 15 And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor.5)

    how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor.5:19)

    That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Tim.1:15)

    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. (Jn.12:32)

    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)

    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:29)
    Last edited by GregoryN; October 14th, 2018 at 01:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    It's the plain teaching of the Scriptures:

    "For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and MEN, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6).
    All the Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post

    Also that word all simply means all of the many, Notice Matt 20:28
    "Just like by one man’s disobedience “many” [Rom.5:19] were made sinners applies to all, so also Christ giving his life a ransom “for many” includes all."

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    "Just like by one man’s disobedience “many” [Rom.5:19] were made sinners applies to all, so also Christ giving his life a ransom “for many” includes all."

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
    The Sheep. Christ gave His life for the Sheep Jn 10:11

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    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    "Just like by one man’s disobedience “many” [Rom.5:19] were made sinners applies to all, so also Christ giving his life a ransom “for many” includes all."
    No.

    Adam was the covenant head of all mankind.
    Jesus Christ is the covenant head of the elect, the one's believing.

    There are some who argue that “many” is simply synonymous with “all“; that Christ died for all or every individual. There is a passage where all and many are used in a parallel manner:

    Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    In Romans 5:18 Paul describes the benefits of Christ’s death to “all men,” wherein the “all” refers only to those united to Christ in His death. As Adam is the covenant head of all who are sinners by imputation, Christ is the covenant head of all who are justified or made righteous. You cannot attempt to make the comparison you are trying to use between Adam and Christ unless you are aware of the covenantal aspects.

    The plain meaning is, all connected with Adam, and all connected with Christ. If the all in the latter part of Romans 5:18 is co-extensive with the all in the former of Romans 5:18, the passage of necessity teaches universal salvation; for it is impossible that to be justified, constituted righteous, can mean simply that justification is offered to all men.

    The all who are justified are saved. If therefore the all means, all men, the apostle teaches that all men are saved, but Paul himself, distinctly teaches that all men are not to be saved, as in 2 Thes. 1:9. Thus, not only does Paul teach that “all” refers not to the whole human race but only those united to Christ in His death, but Paul also teaches that Christ’s death actually guarantees or secures salvation for the ones who believe, the elect (Romans 5:19). Paul rules out the idea that Christ’s death merely made salvation a possibility.

    In other words,

    Romans 5:18 — The offense of one man was imputed to 'all men' who are under that one man's headship. The righteousness of one man is imputed to 'all men' who are under that one man's headship.

    Romans 5:19 — One man's (Adam) disobedience was charged to the 'many' who are under that one man's headship and they are therefore made sinners. One man's (Jesus Christ) perfect obedience was credited to the 'many' who are under that one man's headship and they are therefore made righteous.

    Q.E.D.

    AMR
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