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Thread: Did Jesus die only for the sheep (cf. John 10)?

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    Did Jesus die only for the sheep (cf. John 10)?

    1. Did Jesus die "only" for the sheep (cf. John 10)?

    2. Did Jesus die to save none but the sheep (cf. John 10)?

    3. Who are the sheep?

    4. Will all become sheep?

    Jesus tasted death for everyone (Heb.2:9, etc).

    Did Jesus die “only” for “our (the sheep’s) sins”, or also for the whole world:

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 Jn.2:2)

    Jesus said He came to save the world (Jn.3:17). So He didn’t come just to save a few lucky ones that He randomly selected to win the Calvinist lottery.

    If Jesus dying for the sheep meant “only” for the sheep, then shouldn’t John being the “one Jesus loved” mean Jesus “only” loved John and not Peter or the world (Jn.3:16):

    So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!” (John 20:2). For God so loved the world (Jn.3:16a).

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    You seem mixed up. You don't even address Matthew 25 where Jesus tells us the sheep inherit what was given them at creation while the goats receive what the curse gave them.
    John 3 agrees with this.
    5 Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.7 So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. 12 But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
    16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
    18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.

    Those who believe will have eternal life. Who are those who believe? The answer is: Those whom the Father has given to Jesus so that they will believe.
    You fight against scripture to cling to a fantasy.

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    John 10 is the beginning of the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ezekiel 34 which is yet to be completely fulfilled.

    Mt 25:31-46 is a prophecy rooted in Joel 3, concerning the judgement of the nations/gentiles after the time of Jacob's Trouble, when the Lord Jesus takes His glorious throne(the throne of David) at His second coming. The nations will be judged according to how they treated believing Israelites during the Great Tribulation. This will take place in the Kidron Valley which Joel calls the valley of Jehoshaphat(Jehovah judges).
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You seem mixed up. You don't even address Matthew 25
    Why would i address Mt 25 when the subject is John 10.

    Don't you have anything to say about John 10?

    Matthew 25 BTW is addressed in the restitution of all thread.

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    Paul says the Lord will “save me”. Does that mean “only” Paul will be saved? No. And neither does Jesus saying He will lay down His life for His sheep mean He died “only” for the sheep. If Jesus wanted to limit the number of people that His death was for, He could have easily done so. Yet nowhere in the Scriptures do we see that. Quite the contrary, in fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Why would i address Mt 25 when the subject is John 10.

    Don't you have anything to say about John 10?

    Matthew 25 BTW is addressed in the restitution of all thread.
    You brought up the sheep. Matthew 25 deals very clearly with your question regarding John 10.

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    “I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber! 2 But the one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

    Verse 1...destroys universalism.
    Verse 2...agrees with Jesus statement, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
    Verse 3...only those whom God has given ears to hear will respond to Jesus. (Yet another destruction of universalism.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    1. Did Jesus die "only" for the sheep (cf. John 10)?
    The Lord Jesus died on behalf of all people but only those who believe are baptized into His death.

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    gregn

    Did Jesus die "only" for the sheep (cf. John 10
    )?
    Yes, to say otherwise is mere speculation. Christ was very particular in stating exactly whom He died for Read Jn 10:11,15

    Who are the sheep?
    The elect, the church Eph 5:25

    Will all become sheep?
    No

    Jesus tasted death for everyone (Heb.2:9, etc).
    Thats the sheep


    Did Jesus die “only” for “our (the sheep’s) sins”, or also for the whole world:

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 Jn.2:2)

    Jesus said He came to save the world (Jn.3:17). So He didn’t come just to save a few lucky ones that He randomly selected to win the Calvinist lottery.

    If Jesus dying for the sheep meant “only” for the sheep, then shouldn’t John being the “one Jesus loved” mean Jesus “only” loved John and not Peter or the world (Jn.3:16):
    Pertaining to the Sheep
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    “I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber! 2 But the one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

    Verse 1...destroys universalism.
    Verse 2...agrees with Jesus statement, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
    Verse 3...only those whom God has given ears to hear will respond to Jesus. (Yet another destruction of universalism.)

    Lame. Faulty. Erroneous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You don't even address Matthew 25 where Jesus tells us the sheep inherit what was given them at creation
    How is that, since "at creation" they didn't even exist. It is literally - impossible - to give anything to anyone who doesn't even exist yet. So I'd consider a non literal interpretation. Such as, for example, God intended to give a special inheritance to any who exercised libertarian free will (LFW) premortem to follow the light they had been given, as evidenced by the good works the sheep do.

    BTW, there's no "given" here:

    34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, those being blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom having been prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    Or in any of these versions:

    https://biblehub.com/matthew/25-34.htm

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    Did Jesus die only for the sheep (cf. John 10)?

    Greg, I do not expect you to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    John 10 is the beginning of the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ezekiel 34 which is yet to be completely fulfilled.

    Mt 25:31-46 is a prophecy rooted in Joel 3, concerning the judgement of the nations/gentiles after the time of Jacob's Trouble, when the Lord Jesus takes His glorious throne(the throne of David) at His second coming. The nations will be judged according to how they treated believing Israelites during the Great Tribulation. This will take place in the Kidron Valley which Joel calls the valley of Jehoshaphat(Jehovah judges).
    May I, ko of ste?:



    "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." Mt. 25:31-36 KJV

    -Those judged will be the nations. The Jews will not be there at that judgment, for thy are "...not to be reckoned among the nations"(Numbers 23:9 KJV). "The" church(whichever) will not be there, for it bears no relation to the Lord Jesus Christ as "the Son of Man"(this title is used exclusively as it relates to judgment, and taking dominion on earth,) because it will not come into judgment at all(Romans 8:1 KJV............................................... .................................................. ..........................)

    -the place is before "the throne of his glory", which on earth, not "in the third heaven":

    "And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them." Ezekiel 39:21 KJV

    Heathen in "the heavenly places?"

    "For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land........Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.." Joel 3:1.2,11,12 KJV

    "Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter." Isaiah 34:2 KJV

    -The ground of this judgment is not even righteousness, much less holiness; it is not the ground of faith, or grace. And as to works, it is not even "good works" generally, but, as such, but only one specific work, viz., how these nations, the heathen treated "the brethren" of the Judge, the Son of Man,i.e., the Jews, per Matthew 25:35-40 KJV. This can only refer to those nations who were ALIVE to stand before that Judge, and which have thus treated or maltreated "my brethren", i.e., His brethren. And notice that there is not one word about RESURRECTION in this passage, as there is in the "Great White Throne" judgment.

    -The reward is specific: it is entrance into "...the kingdom prepared for you(the JEWS-my note)from the foundation of the world..."(Mt. 25:34 KJV).

    Only mental gymnastics can "square" this with this being the body of Christ, i.e., -how the church, which is his body, "in Christ"... before the foundation of the world..."(Eph. 1:4 KJV), can enter the kingdom" is a problem, and those who make it must spiritualize simple words.

    This kingdom is under the whole heaven(Psalms 115:16 KJV), upon the earth(Deut. 11:21 KJV) and before the 1000 year millennium when the Son of Man will appear with His holy angels "to execute judgment .....in the land"=on earth(Jer.23:5, 33:15 KJV):

    "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. " Jude 14 ,15 KJV

    "cometh" to where? EARTH=where the Lord Jesus Christ will establish his literal throne in Jerusalem.

    "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." John 5:27 KJV

    However, even this judgment is not total, nor final, for,after 1000 years, Satan will be loosed for a season, in order to demonstrate, that, despite "the perfect environment", as was the condition in the garden of Eden, in spite of all the evidences of the glory and goodness of the LORD God demonstrated in His millennial reign, man is a rebel at heart, or, to use an idiom, "he is what he is." And thus, so much for "the social gospel", and "dominion theology"-trying to "fix this place up", then man will change, he will "evolve"(evolution!) upward. No, man has a "heart problem", which only the gospel of Christ can rectify/cure.

    vs. "The Great White Throne" Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15

    "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:11-15 KJV

    -when: immediately after the 1000 years, marking it off from other judgments.

    -the place: before the "great white throne"

    -the persons that appear before it are to be raised from the dead for this special, particular purpose. These lived before the 1000 years, but they "...lived not again until the thousand years were finished"(Rev. 20:5 KJV). Those who died during the 1000 years must also be there, for not one will be there who has not died. It is "....the resurrection of damnation"(John 5:29 KJV=judgment./ condemnation). Those who introduce the dead among the living nations of Mt. 25 KJV, of course do not hesitate to introduce the living among the dead in Revelation 20!

    So, notice-RESURRECTION here of those who have died, vs. none in Mt. 25 KJV judgment of the heathen nations, who are living.

    These are not the same judgments.

    Again:

    Note the order in Mt. 25:31 KJV, and when this verse is fulfilled. The Lord Jesus Christ has to return to earth "in his glory." Accompanying him will be "all the holy angels." Neither of these has yet to occur. "Then" He shall "sit upon his throne of glory." Is "then" other than a time word indicating future? Yes. Could "His throne of glory" be David's throne? Yes. Or does the Lord Jesus Christ have another throne, besides David's throne? And where is this "throne of glory?" Since Christ is coming to earth, it must therefore be on earth. From there he will judge the nations as the verses in Mt. 25 KJV indicate.


    Regarding the throne, Christ made a promise to His disciples that, “In the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt. 19:28 KJV). Amillennialists would have us believe this refers to Christ sitting at the right hand of God. If this is true, then the twelve must have been seated with Him at that time on their thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. But we know that at the time the twelve were hiding behind locked doors or were in prison. Therefore, if Christ’s promise is to be fulfilled, it will be sometime in the future. Premillennialists understand the “regeneration” to refer to that time of renewal and restoration spoken of by all the OT prophets. This is referred to as the Messianic or Millennial Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ="the regeneration."
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Greg, I do not expect you to see.
    Mt.25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, those being blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom having been prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    Is "you" the specific individuals God foreknew, or the - group - He prepared the inheritance for who exercised their libertarian free will (LFW) for God?

    If i put out a general public invitation to a meal i've prepared & then say to those who came to partake of it "thank you for coming to this meal i prepared for YOU", it doesn't necessarily mean by "you" that i foreknew which individuals would come. I prepared the meal for the - group - who would come of their own LFW. This group is the "you" referred to. Compare Mt.25:34 above.

    Does God foreknow LFW choices? Not according to Open Theism:

    "Open Theism, also called openness and the open view, is a theological position dealing with human free will and its relationship to God and the nature of the future. It is the teaching that God has granted to humanity free will and that in order for the free will to be truly free, the future free will choices of individuals cannot be known ahead of time by God."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Mt.25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, those being blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom having been prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    Is "you" the specific individuals God foreknew, or the - group - He prepared the inheritance for who exercised their libertarian free will (LFW) for God?

    If i put out a general public invitation to a meal i've prepared & then say to those who came to partake of it "thank you for coming to this meal i prepared for YOU", it doesn't necessarily mean by "you" that i foreknew which individuals would come. I prepared the meal for the - group - who would come of their own LFW. This group is the "you" referred to. Compare Mt.25:34 above.

    Does God foreknow LFW choices? Not according to Open Theism:

    "Open Theism, also called openness and the open view, is a theological position dealing with human free will and its relationship to God and the nature of the future. It is the teaching that God has granted to humanity free will and that in order for the free will to be truly free, the future free will choices of individuals cannot be known ahead of time by God."
    I know this site is owned by open theists. Open theism is a heresy. John Piper utterly destroyed Greg Boyd in debate on the issue just as Augustine destroyed Pelagius centuries before.
    God is Sovereign over ever little detail at all times, past, present and future. I find small minded people who worship a wimpy God to be the saddest christians one could find.
    Keep telling yourself you are in control. Let me know how that works out when you stand before your Creator.

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