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Thread: You Cannot Live the Christian Life

  1. #31
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No, once a person sins he is no longer continuing in well doing. Once a person sins he dies
    Yes, scripture states that a person that sins will die.

    Ezekiel 18:24
    24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    in order to be saved he must be born again of the Spirit.
    Once anyone sins then he must first be born again and then walk after the Spirit in order to live the Christian life.
    You seem to be ignoring some of the things stated in scripture.

    Ezekiel 18:27-28
    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
    28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


    "Walking after the Spirit" is just Paul's way of stating "turn away from wickedness and do that which is lawful and right"

    Another thing to consider is whether "born again" happens when you first believe or if being "born again" is what happens in the Resurrection.

    1 Corinthians 15:44,46,49-54
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Yes, scripture states that a person that sins will die.
    The verses you quoted are in regard to those who lived under the law of Moses and the penalty of physical death. But the subject of which I was referring to is spiritual death.

    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You seem to be ignoring some of the things stated in scripture.
    Those verses are not speaking of spiritual life but physical life.
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    "Walking after the Spirit" is just Paul's way of stating "turn away from wickedness and do that which is lawful and right"
    No, it is speaking about living a God centered life as opposed to a self-centered life.

    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Another thing to consider is whether "born again" happens when you first believe or if being "born again" is what happens in the Resurrection.
    Peter speaks of those who are "born again" in the present tense (1 Pet.1:23) so it is clear that being "born again" is not something which will happen in the future.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The verses you quoted are in regard to those who lived under the law of Moses and the penalty of physical death. But the subject of which I was referring to is spiritual death.
    Those verses are not speaking of spiritual life but physical life.
    The verses are speaking about what happens to a person after the judgment.
    The righteous person that turn to wickedness will be dead after the judgment.
    The wicked person that turns to righteousness will live after the judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Peter speaks of those who are "born again" in the present tense (1 Pet.1:23) so it is clear that being "born again" is not something which will happen in the future.
    John says that we will become like Jesus when He appears.
    Paul says we will change from an earthly body to a heavenly body in the twinkling of an eye.

    Are you claiming that the change testified by John and Paul is not the same as being born again?

    Paul says that we are waiting for the adoption.
    Is the adoption a different event than being born again?

    The writers of the New Testament often speak about our future state as if we have already attained that state.
    They also speak about our future state not happening until the return of Jesus.
    Peter states that we will not receive the salvation of our souls until the appearing of Jesus Christ.
    Paul states that we wait for our salvation and that our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed the gospel.
    But, in other places we are told that we have already been saved.

    Are we waiting for our salvation, or have we already been saved?
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    According to the Bible, a human being is able to live the Christian life on his own.
    Maybe the problem is what modern Christians claim "living the Christian life" is all about?
    On his own? Really? I don't see the Bible making that claim.

    So, without the Spirit of God dwelling in them, they can live the Christian life? Those "modern" Christians are either false believers, or they are simply ignorant.

    Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Philippians 1:6
    Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    The danger, GO, is that man will always be prone to boast. Therefore boasting is excluded by the very law of faith. All glory goes to God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The Lord Jesus' own human will was responsible for Him being able to do the will of the Father. After all, He said that He came to DO the will of the Father:

    "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me" (Jn.6:38).

    Do you deny that it was the Lord Jesus' own will which resulted in Him doing the will of the Father?

    If you cannot deny that then that proves that the Lord Jesus was able by Himself to live a Christian life.
    I believe what is true for us was true for the man Jesus.

    Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

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  8. #36
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    On his own? Really? I don't see the Bible making that claim.

    1 Timothy 1:18-19
    18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
    19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:



    1 Timothy 6:11-12
    11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
    12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

    Learn to read what is written.

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  9. #37
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    1 Timothy 1:18-19
    18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
    19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:



    1 Timothy 6:11-12
    11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
    12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
    And wasn't Timothy a member of the body of Christ with the indwelling Spirit. Wasn't Timothy a new creature....created IN Christ Jesus?

    Well, then, he was not doing anything on his own.

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  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post


    "Walking after the Spirit" is just Paul's way of stating "turn away from wickedness and do that which is lawful and right"
    Actually, it's Paul's way of saying we have been created a "new creature" "IN CHRIST".

    2 Corinthians 5:17
    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    True believers walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    You cannot ignore Paul's teaching here to support man's efforts to be holy. Those who are after the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit...not the works of the flesh.

    Romans 5:4-5 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I believe what is true for us was true for the man Jesus.

    Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
    If that is true then why was the Lord Jesus own will in opposition to that of the Father?:

    "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"
    (Mt.26:39).

    Now would you answer my question?:

    Do you deny that it was the Lord Jesus' own will which resulted in Him doing the will of the Father?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    True believers walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    When Paul speaks of walking after the flesh he is speaking of living a self-centered life. When he speaks of walking after the Spirit he is speaking about living a God-centered life. There is nothing that is sinful about a person's flesh or his body. Let us look at the following verse:

    "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:4).

    Paul speaks about that same principle in the verse which follows:

    "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit"
    (Ro.8:5).

    We can also understand that it is indeed possible for a Christian to walk or live after the flesh because Paul tells Christians that if they live after the flesh they shall die:

    "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:13).

    The "death" spoken of here is in regard to the "life" which Paul speaks of here:, that "we should also walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:4) so that "the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11). So if a Christian lives a self-centered life any newness of life which they once had will die or cease to exist.

    The second part of verse 13 is telling Christians that if they mortify the deeds of the body they will live. Christians are already received eternal life so Paul's words there are also referring to walking in newness of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Theoretically possible is not in the same realm as reality and practical application.
    Since it is theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by his own deeds then that can only mean that he has the ability to do that. If a person doesn't have that ability then it wouldn't even be theoretically possible.

    If a person does not have the ability to keep the law then it would be unjust of God to declare anyone guilty of breaking the law.

    The fact that the Lord Jesus, who was made like His brethren in all things (Heb.2:17), kept the law perfectly proves that all people have that ability. So when He kept the law perfectly He lived a Christian life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If that is true then why was the Lord Jesus own will in opposition to that of the Father?:

    "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"
    (Mt.26:39).
    The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. What's the point you're trying to make?

    Now would you answer my question?:

    Do you deny that it was the Lord Jesus' own will which resulted in Him doing the will of the Father?
    I've answered you once already.

    I believe what is true for us was true for the man Jesus.

    Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

  19. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    When Paul speaks of walking after the flesh he is speaking of living a self-centered life. When he speaks of walking after the Spirit he is speaking about living a God-centered life. There is nothing that is sinful about a person's flesh or his body. Let us look at the following verse:
    Spoiler

    "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:4).

    Paul speaks about that same principle in the verse which follows:

    "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit"
    (Ro.8:5).

    We can also understand that it is indeed possible for a Christian to walk or live after the flesh because Paul tells Christians that if they live after the flesh they shall die:

    "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:13).

    The "death" spoken of here is in regard to the "life" which Paul speaks of here:, that "we should also walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:4) so that "the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11). So if a Christian lives a self-centered life any newness of life which they once had will die or cease to exist.

    The second part of verse 13 is telling Christians that if they mortify the deeds of the body they will live. Christians are already received eternal life so Paul's words there are also referring to walking in newness of life.
    I never said there was anything sinful about a person's flesh or his body.

    The unsaved live a self-centered life. They are carnal.

    I don't agree with you that believers can be children of the night. So, let's not go there.
    For some reason, you have a very low opinion of the "new creature". I don't.

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  21. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Since it is theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by his own deeds then that can only mean that he has the ability to do that. If a person doesn't have that ability then it wouldn't even be theoretically possible.

    If a person does not have the ability to keep the law then it would be unjust of God to declare anyone guilty of breaking the law.

    The fact that the Lord Jesus, who was made like His brethren in all things (Heb.2:17), kept the law perfectly proves that all people have that ability. So when He kept the law perfectly He lived a Christian life.
    Theoretically possible? So you say.

    I say, it's not possible, for the very reason that God had to send His own Son to accomplish it for us. Nor is it unjust of God, for the simple reason that man was created to rely totally on God and to trust totally in Him.

    The fact that Jesus was "made like His brethren in all things" does not mean He ceased being God. He was God in the flesh, which means He was holy and righteous in all things. There is no other human being ever that had the wisdom and power of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Theoretically possible? So you say.
    Even the Calvinists agree with me that people have the ability. In his commentary on Romans 2:5-8 Douglas J. Moo writes that "Verses 7 and 8 outline the two possible outcomes of God rendering to 'each' according to works. On the one hand, to 'those who by their persistence in good works and seeking glory and honor and immorality' he will 'render' eternal life. Paul's suggestion that a person's 'good work' might lead to eternal life seems strange in the light of his teaching elsewhere."

    Of course it is going to sound strange to a Calvinist because it contradicts their teaching of Total Depravity. The Apostle Paul says that it is the doers of the law who shall be justified:

    "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified"
    (Ro.2:13).

    Moo understand that it is at least theoretically possible for the doers of the law to be justified, writing that "he (Paul) upholds faithful obedience to God, or to the law as a 'theoretical' means of obtaining justification (cf. 2:13; 7:10)."

    Every Jew had the ability to keep the law to the extent of being justified. And that means that the Lord Jesus had the ability to keep the law perfectly. And He did in fact keep it perfectly and therefore it is ridiculous to argue that He said that He couldn't live a Christian life.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I say, it's not possible, for the very reason that God had to send His own Son to accomplish it for us.
    Every person has the ability but not the "will." Sooner or later every single person sins so you are right, it is impossible for anyone except for the Lord Jesus to live a sinless life. But at the same time every person has the "ability" and that is why people are without excuse when they sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    The fact that Jesus was "made like His brethren in all things" does not mean He ceased being God. He was God in the flesh, which means He was holy and righteous in all things. There is no other human being ever that had the wisdom and power of God.
    EXACTLY! That is why it is ridiculous to say that the Lord Jesus said that He couldn't live a Christian life.

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