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Thread: Calvinism: Only Some People Have the Ability to Believe the Gospel

  1. #106
    Over 500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So the Calvinists don't argue that certain people are blind to the light of the gospel from birth?
    Sight is not the issue with Clavinists. It's ability. Namely, inability. 'Total Depravity' is due to inability, they quote Romans 3
    There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    ...which is a quote from the Psalms. They teach that without grace, what David wrote applies to everybody, and so logically, in their minds, according to their own doctrine, God would need to intervene directly in the life of each one who goes on to believe in the Lord Jesus, and so 'Unconditional Election' proceeds logically, to Clavinists, from their 'Total Depravity,' which they feel is indomitably rooted in the plainest scriptures.

    'Election' however doesn't do anything without the Holy Spirit then visiting the elect, and 'regenerating' them, which then empowers them and them alone, to believe the Gospel, which they of course would have had to have heard before this visiting occurs. This is called 'Irresistible Grace,' which means that when the Spirit, like a hitman targets the elect, He never fails to regenerate them, and there is no resistance from the elect, because, the Clavinist argues, due to 'Total Depravity,' we are All resisting the Spirit all the time anyway. So when He prevails against our inability, He always does so successfully.

    'Preservation of the Saints' is logically implied by 'Unconditional Election' and 'Irresistible Grace.'

    And 'Limited Atonement' logically follows, again, to the Clavinists, from 'Unconditional Election' and 'Irresistible Grace' also, since God's election is unconditional, meaning that He chooses whom He wills according to His good pleasure, and He never fails in what He sets out for Himself to accomplish.

    I'm not trying to persuade you to believe Clavinism, which was obvious before, and I'm just making that explicit now. I myself used to be a convinced Clavinist, thinking that was the odds-on truth of God, but I am now Catholic in my theology, though not in my body at present.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    From what Paul said here it is evident that the ones who are perishing are perishing because they cannot see its light.

    Do you think that the Calvinists teach that from birth all people have the ability to see its light?
    The Clavinists teach inability from conception (per, to them, Psalm 51), so I'd say No.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    No, it doesn't.



    You lied. The scriptures testify that believing in the death, burial, and resurrection, as Paul outlines in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, the gospel of Christ,is the sole basis of justification
    Paul mentions His Passion and burial here, yes, but later on in the same chapter He describes specifically and only Christ's Resurrection as the sine qua non of the one Christian faith; ergo, believing in His Resurrection is tantamount to believing the Gospel of Christ, and of believing in Christ (cf. Ga2:16KJV). Also Peter specifically mentions the Resurrection in 1st Peter 1:3 KJV, and even Paul in Romans 10:9 KJV calls out the Resurrection specifically (without His Passion and burial), and also in 2nd Timothy 2:8 KJV.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    , and excludes any form of "works," as a basis, foundation, for being justified in the LORD God's eyes.
    Agreed 100%.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    That excludes Catholics, JW's, Mormons, and probably you, as "one of the elect," as they include works as a basis, even though they believe that the Lord Jesus Christ rose, historically, from the dead.
    How could anything else interfere with believing in Christ? Believing the Gospel of Christ triumphs over every other error and sin we commit. It must, and I don't think that you disagree with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You are lying,or you don't even know your own "argument"(reasons for a conclusion-no other option.
    No, you're lying.

    We learned that from you.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  3. #108
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Paul mentions His Passion and burial here, yes, but later on in the same chapter He describes specifically and only Christ's Resurrection as the sine qua non of the one Christian faith; ergo, believing in His Resurrection is tantamount to believing the Gospel of Christ, and of believing in Christ (cf. Ga2:16KJV). Also Peter specifically mentions the Resurrection in 1st Peter 1:3 KJV, and even Paul in Romans 10:9 KJV calls out the Resurrection specifically (without His Passion and burial), and also in 2nd Timothy 2:8 KJV.
    Agreed 100%.
    How could anything else interfere with believing in Christ? Believing the Gospel of Christ triumphs over every other error and sin we commit. It must, and I don't think that you disagree with me.
    No, you're lying.

    We learned that from you.
    You missed the/your "argument," Col.Klink, asserting that anyone that believes that the Lord Jesus Christ historically rose from the dead,is justified, thus asserting that the satanic Catholics, JW's, Mormons,.............................are justified.


    You lie, and continue to lie....defiled, seared conscience, and all.

    You are dismissed, Col. Klink. Take your seat.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You missed the/your "argument," Col.Klink, asserting that anyone that believes that the Lord Jesus Christ historically rose from the dead,is justified, thus asserting that the satanic Catholics, JW's, Mormons,.............................are justified.
    I'm just reading my Bible. You're trouble's with the volume of the Book, not with me, nor with them all. If you believe in Christ's Resurrection, you're an individual member of the Body of Christ. 'Satanic' Catholics, JWs, Mormons, and the like. Believing in His Resurrection is the tie that binds us all together, whether we all like it or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You lie, and continue to lie....defiled, seared conscience, and all.

    You are dismissed, Col. Klink. Take your seat.
    I told you it's occupied.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Sight is not the issue with Clavinists. It's ability. Namely, inability.
    If you can't see the light of the gospel then you have no ability to believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    'Total Depravity' is due to inability, they quote Romans 3
    There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    The problem for the Calvinsts with those verses is the fact that Paul is speaking about people after they have already sinned and not the way people emerge from the womb:

    "No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Ro.3:9-10).

    None of the preceding verses say anything about anyone being under sin because of Adam's sin but instead they are under sin because of their own sins. In order for the Calvinists to cling to their teaching that all people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good" they must ignore the fact that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

    The Catholics are just as confused as the Calvinists on this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I'm just reading my Bible.

    Wow-stunned all of us with that original cliche. Weighty.

    Many read the bible, but don't believe it.


    You can't be this stupid.



    You missed the/your "argument," Col.Klink, asserting that anyone that believes that the Lord Jesus Christ historically rose from the dead,is justified, thus asserting that the satanic Catholics, JW's, Mormons,.............................are justified.

    No, they must not only believe it happened, historically, perverter of the gospel of Christ, they must trust the dbr as the sole solution to the sin/sins problem, shucking any work's-based systems of obtaining justification, before a holy LORD God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    You're trouble's with the volume of the Book, not with me, nor with them all.

    Another stunner. You're trouble's with the volume of the Book, not with me, nor with them all.

    Check. Fun!

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    If you believe in Christ's Resurrection, you're an individual member of the Body of Christ. 'Satanic' Catholics, JWs, Mormons, and the like. Believing in His Resurrection is the tie that binds us all together, whether we all like it or not.
    I told you it's occupied.
    No, they must not only believe it happened, historically, perverter of the gospel of Christ, they must trust the dbr as the sole solution to the sin/sins problem, shucking any work's-based systems of obtaining justification, before a holy LORD God.If they do not, they are a child of the devil, like yourself.


    Be gone, wolfie. You're beginning to bore me.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If you can't see the light of the gospel then you have no ability to believe it.
    Yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The problem for the Calvinsts with those verses is the fact that Paul is speaking about people after they have already sinned and not the way people emerge from the womb:

    "No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Ro.3:9-10).

    None of the preceding verses say anything about anyone being under sin because of Adam's sin but instead they are under sin because of their own sins. In order for the Calvinists to cling to their teaching that all people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good" they must ignore the fact that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).
    OK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The Catholics are just as confused as the Calvinists on this issue.
    No they're not.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Wow-stunned all of us with that original cliche. Weighty.

    Many read the bible, but don't believe it.


    You can't be this stupid.
    Jury's still out.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You missed the/your "argument," Col.Klink, asserting that anyone that believes that the Lord Jesus Christ historically rose from the dead,is justified, thus asserting that the satanic Catholics, JW's, Mormons,.............................are justified.

    No, they must not only believe it happened, historically, perverter of the gospel of Christ, they must trust the dbr as the sole solution to the sin/sins problem, shucking any work's-based systems of obtaining justification, before a holy LORD God.
    In order to be saved? Prove it. Prove it from Romans 10:9 KJV, than any of that that I bolded is correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Another stunner. You're trouble's with the volume of the Book, not with me, nor with them all.

    Check. Fun!



    No, they must not only believe it happened, historically, perverter of the gospel of Christ, they must trust the dbr as the sole solution to the sin/sins problem, shucking any work's-based systems of obtaining justification, before a holy LORD God.If they do not, they are a child of the devil, like yourself.
    Prove it.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Be gone, wolfie. You're beginning to bore me.
    'Think I'll stick around and play this one out.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Calvinism: Only Some People Have the Ability to Believe the Gospel
    According to the scripture only some people have the ability to believe the Gospel. That would be the saved by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, which of course is the elect, the chosen.

    See the lost person cant believe the Gospel of Christ because its hidden from them 2 Cor 4:3-4

    But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

    What can be plainer than Paul's statement here ?
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to beloved57 For Your Post:

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    No they're not.
    So the church at Rome teaches that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethern IN ALL THINGS?

    Here is what Rome teaches about how people enter the world:

    "Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth (CCC 1250).

    If Rome is right that infants enter the world with a fallen nature and tainted by original sin then how can it be said that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS?

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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Jury's still out.
    In order to be saved? Prove it. Prove it from Romans 10:9 KJV, than any of that that I bolded is correct.
    Prove it.
    'Think I'll stick around and play this one out.
    I have "proved it" for years, on TOL,with brilliant expositions, expounding, verse, by verse, punk, tough "guy," with your impressive, albeit canned cliche, "prove it," and feel no obligation to give you the honor of engaging me, as you are quite irrelevant on our board.

    My page:

    This page has had 16,775 visits





    Vs. yours:

    This page has had 86 visits





    Contrasts.


    Can you dig it, Hop Sing?
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So the church at Rome teaches that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethern IN ALL THINGS?

    Here is what Rome teaches about how people enter the world:

    "Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth (CCC 1250).

    If Rome is right that infants enter the world with a fallen nature and tainted by original sin then how can it be said that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS?
    You're right to examine the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' ('CCC') to know for sure what the authentic teachers of the one Christian faith teach authoritatively in matter of faith and morals, Jerry. All of the teachings are Apostolic, and integrate together, and all emanate from 'the mind of Christ' (1Co2:16KJV). The Church receives the entire Bible as authoritative in matters of faith and morals, so for any question you have that takes the form of 'Does the Catholic Church believe Hebrews 2:17 KJV?' the answer is always going to be Yes.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    I have "proved it" for years, on TOL,with brilliant expositions, expounding, verse, by verse, punk, tough "guy," with your impressive, albeit canned cliche, "prove it," and feel no obligation to give you the honor of engaging me, as you are quite irrelevant on our board.
    Saint John, your 'board,' is quite irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    My page:

    This page has had 16,775 visits
    Spoiler





    Vs. yours:

    This page has had 86 visits
    Spoiler



    How many visits do you think the Holy See's web Domain (they don't just have a 'website,' they have the whole '.va' domain) has by now? Do you think it's more or less than 16 thousand?
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Contrasts.
    Did you see what I did there? Contrasts indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Can you dig it, Hop Sing?
    Mm-hmm.

    The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is through faith alone, which became clear after the Second Vatican Church Council, when she finally openly expressed the authentic Christian faith on the matter of those not in full communion with her. We are all Catholics on the way to full communion, and we are all rightly and justly called 'Christians,' and we will all meet in glory, celebrating together the heavenly Mass for eternity, glorifying God, the Father, the Spirit, and the only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the king of the universe.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    You're right to examine the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' ('CCC') to know for sure what the authentic teachers of the one Christian faith teach authoritatively in matter of faith and morals, Jerry. All of the teachings are Apostolic, and integrate together, and all emanate from 'the mind of Christ' (1Co2:16KJV). The Church receives the entire Bible as authoritative in matters of faith and morals, so for any question you have that takes the form of 'Does the Catholic Church believe Hebrews 2:17 KJV?' the answer is always going to be Yes.
    Why did you just ignore what Rome teaches in regard to how people emerge from the womb?

    "Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth" (CCC 1250).

    It is obvious that is wrong because the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS (Heb.2:17) and it is clear that the Lord Jesus was not born with a fallen human nature!

    Or perhaps you want to argue that He was?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Why did you just ignore what Rome teaches in regard to how people emerge from the womb?

    "Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth" (CCC 1250).
    I didn't, and I don't, 'ignore' anything that the authorized teachers of the Christian faith teach, in matters of faith and morals. What is written there in the CCC is authentic Christian teaching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It is obvious that is wrong because the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS (Heb.2:17) and it is clear that the Lord Jesus was not born with a fallen human nature!

    Or perhaps you want to argue that He was?
    Does Hebrews 2:17 KJV indicate that He was the same height or complexion, or have the same eye and hair color, as His brethren? No of course it doesn't, but then how can it be that He 'was made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS,' if it's not really 'IN ALL THINGS?' Maybe you're eisegetically reading some things into that phrase that's not there, since surely hair and eye color, and basic build, height, etc., fall under 'ALL THINGS?'
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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