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Thread: Calvinism: Only Some People Have the Ability to Believe the Gospel

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    How do we/you know that you are not one of the "lost people," and that you are one of "the elect?"


    Years being asked that question, and silencio.


    Come on, bedeviled666-spam another copy'npaste sound byte/spam of yours. Please?



    have you ever encountered a calvinist who didn't believe they were one of the elect?


    seems like there must be one or two

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So?

    That does not change the fact that even those who are perishing have the ability to see the light of the gospel. Are you willing to argue that the "god of this age" can blind them even though they are already blind?
    He doesn't have to permit this to occur, but He does permit it to occur. Why? He could stop the blinding, don't you agree? Why wouldn't He stop 'the god of this age' from 'blinding the minds of unbelievers?' He can. Why doesn't He.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    have you ever encountered a calvinist who didn't believe they were one of the elect?


    seems like there must be one or two
    Every Calvinist believes in Christ's Resurrection at minimum, so they are all of the elect.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    have you ever encountered a calvinist who didn't believe they were one of the elect?


    seems like there must be one or two
    You missed my point-I asked "How," not "if."
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Every Calvinist believes in Christ's Resurrection at minimum, so they are all of the elect.
    And Roman Catholics, JW's, Mormon's..... believes in Christ's Resurrection at minimum-your point?
    Saint John W

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    He doesn't have to permit this to occur, but He does permit it to occur. Why? He could stop the blinding, don't you agree? Why wouldn't He stop 'the god of this age' from 'blinding the minds of unbelievers?' He can. Why doesn't He.
    You are trying to change the subject. Please answer the question which no one has yet answered. How is it possible that the god of this age can blind the minds of those who are already blind?

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Correct. Jerry is blind to the fact that humans are dead in their trespasses and sins and thus they cannot believe until God makes them alive in Christ.
    You are blind to the fact that the gospel is not powerless since it comes in power and in the Holy Spirit. It is the Word of God which gives life, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:

    "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
    (Jn.6:63).

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    glorydaz (October 10th, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You are blind to the fact that the gospel is not powerless since it comes in power and in the Holy Spirit. It is the Word of God which gives life, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:

    "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
    (Jn.6:63).
    It only comes in power and the Holy Spirit to those whom God quickens. The rest remain dead in their trespasses and sins.
    In other words, the elect are saved, not the entire world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    And Roman Catholics, JW's, Mormon's..... believes in Christ's Resurrection at minimum-your point?
    Well all we know is their testimony. If they credibly confess the Lord Jesus Christ and credibly confess they believe in His Resurrection, then we can't know if they're lying based on what they do or how they behave, although I'd claim 1st John 3:15 KJV as proof positive that if a person is a bona fide murderer (malice aforethought, full knowledge, deliberate consent and all), that if they do confess Christ, then they are lying. But we can disagree on that and still be brothers, just not on that Christ's Resurrection is nonfiction fact of history. That's the sine qua non of the one Christian faith, per Paul the Apostle 1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Well all we know is their testimony. If they credibly confess the Lord Jesus Christ and credibly confess they believe in His Resurrection, then we can't know if they're lying based on what they do or how they behave, although I'd claim 1st John 3:15 KJV as proof positive that if a person is a bona fide murderer (malice aforethought, full knowledge, deliberate consent and all), that if they do confess Christ, then they are lying. But we can disagree on that and still be brothers, just not on that Christ's Resurrection is nonfiction fact of history. That's the sine qua non of the one Christian faith, per Paul the Apostle 1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV.
    You missed it.Pay attention. You argued:
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Every Calvinist believes in Christ's Resurrection at minimum, so they are all of the elect.
    And Roman Catholics, JW's, Mormon's..... believes in Christ's Resurrection at minimum-that does not mean they are "of the elect,"as their testimony, asserts "works based" "salvation"(a contradiction in terms).



    Take your seat.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You are trying to change the subject. Please answer the question which no one has yet answered. How is it possible that the god of this age can blind the minds of those who are already blind?
    That prima facie doesn't make any sense Jerry, which you know, and which is why you're challenging Clavinists with it. But it's a straw man fallacy, because the Clavinist doesn't argue that the reprobate are blind, it's that the reprobate are unable to believe the Gospel, unless God elects them, then regenerates them. There's nothing about blindedness or sightedness in the Clavinist school.

    And I'm sorry you think that I'm trying to change the subject. I'm just trying to spark some conversation with what I think is a decent question to ask about 2nd Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV, in the light of the topic of your OP here. It seems that God is actively permitting unbelievers to be blinded, and I wonder what you think about Him doing that, and why He might do that, and if there's any school of theology who might have wondered the same thing, and maybe have an answer or two.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You missed it.Pay attention. You argued:


    And Roman Catholics, JW's, Mormon's..... believes in Christ's Resurrection at minimum-that does not mean they are "of the elect,"
    Sure it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    as their testimony, asserts "works based" "salvation"(a contradiction in terms).
    So? And you and me and everybody who isn't a Clavinist, a Mormon, a JW, a wayward Catholic, has everything about their assertions 100% correct? 'Course not. Paul the Apostle lays it out. Christ's Resurrection is the sine qua non of our faith. It's Right there 1Co15:14KJV, your favorite chapter.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Take your seat.
    Someone's, already, in it.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Sure it does.
    No, it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    So? And you and me and everybody who isn't a Clavinist, a Mormon, a JW, a wayward Catholic, has everything about their assertions 100% correct? 'Course not. Paul the Apostle lays it out. Christ's Resurrection is the sine qua non of our faith. It's Right there 1Co15:14KJV, your favorite chapter.
    Someone's, already, in it.
    You lied. The scriptures testify that believing in the death, burial, and resurrection, as Paul outlines in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, the gospel of Christ,is the sole basis of justification, and excludes any form of "works," as a basis, foundation, for being justified in the LORD God's eyes.

    That excludes Catholics, JW's, Mormons, and probably you, as "one of the elect," as they include works as a basis, even though they believe that the Lord Jesus Christ rose, historically, from the dead.


    You are lying,or you don't even know your own "argument"(reasons for a conclusion-no other option.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    That prima facie doesn't make any sense Jerry, which you know, and which is why you're challenging Clavinists with it. But it's a straw man fallacy, because the Clavinist doesn't argue that the reprobate are blind, it's that the reprobate are unable to believe the Gospel, unless God elects them, then regenerates them.
    Catch that Calvinist "logic," TOl audience? Did you catch that "sleight of hand," "Three Card Monty?" That is, the Calvinist "argues" that the reprobate are unable to believe the good news, until they are "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit. But, if they are already regenerated, "zapped," they are already saved, and there is no reasonable(Isaiah 1:18 KJV)reason for them to believe, and their LORD God, "god," is an idiot.


    Watch the deceptive spin, that ensues, from these wicked Calvinist con artists. Watch.
    Saint John W

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    That prima facie doesn't make any sense Jerry, which you know, and which is why you're challenging Clavinists with it. But it's a straw man fallacy, because the Clavinist doesn't argue that the reprobate are blind, it's that the reprobate are unable to believe the Gospel, unless God elects them, then regenerates them. There's nothing about blindedness or sightedness in the Clavinist school.
    So the Calvinists don't argue that certain people are blind to the light of the gospel from birth?

    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    From what Paul said here it is evident that the ones who are perishing are perishing because they cannot see its light.

    Do you think that the Calvinists teach that from birth all people have the ability to see its light?

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