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Thread: Calvinism: Only Some People Have the Ability to Believe the Gospel

  1. #46
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Placing salvation in the hands of the sinner, Thats a law gospel of works !
    Believing something is not a work!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The Lord Jesus died for every man and of course those who believe (the elect) are included in that category.

    "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).

    The following words of Paul are saying the same thing:

    "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim.2:6).

    The word "all" does not mean "some." The words "every man" do not mean "every one of the elect."

    And "no," I am not a Universalist!
    Jerry, I have shown you how the context in Hebrews connects to those whom the author is writing. This is the elect, not the entire world. The same thing applies in Paul's writing to Timothy.
    You are falsely taking the English word, "all" and making it universal to the entire world when the context is to all the elect.
    You refuse to accept you are wrong, despite me and others showing you your error.
    This conversation is over since you cannot accept your error.

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    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    ...all men have the ability to believe the gospel....
    The Lord Jesus is risen. You either believe it, or you don't. We believe or not, because we want to believe, or not. Nothing stops us from believing the Gospel if we want to, and nothing stops us from not believing the Gospel if we don't want to.
    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    Nope, I'm not a programmed machine, such as you.
    We are either determined, or we are not determined. If we are determined, then even what we believe is determined. And if we are not determined, then we choose whether or not to believe the Gospel. And if we are determined, then us determinedly believing that we are not determined, doesn't change that we are determined.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  4. #49
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Believing something is not a work!
    Yes it is. I have explained that many times here in this forum
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Yes it is. I have explained that many times here in this forum
    Then explain how you/we, know that you are one of the "roll the dice" "the elect," as I/others have asked you to explain, for years.

    Not a peep. Just drone sound byte spam. That is your MO, "ministry."
    Saint John W

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Yes it is. I have explained that many times here in this forum
    You think that you have actually proved that "believing" is a work? The Apostle Paul refutes your idea:

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"
    (Ro.4:5).

    Here Paul says that a person's faith is counted for righteousness and he also makes it plain that that blessing comes to those who "worketh not"!

    So Paul certainly didn't believe that "faith" is a work.

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You think that you have actually proved that "believing" is a work? The Apostle Paul refutes your idea:

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"
    (Ro.4:5).

    Here Paul says that a person's faith is counted for righteousness and he also makes it plain that that blessing comes to those who "worketh not"!

    So Paul certainly didn't believe that "faith" is a work.
    Paul has never written that believing isn't a work.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    We are either determined, or we are not determined.


    There are three categories, not two.


    The third is self-determination.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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  12. #54
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    I am waiting for even one Calvinist to actually address the passage from the Bible which is the subject of this thread. The following words of Paul demonstrate that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe:

    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"
    (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

    The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.

    The truth that all men have the ability to believe the gospel and therefore receive the benefits which flow from the Lord Jesus' death prove that the Lord Jesus died for every person who has ever lived on the face of the earth.

    Maybe there is at least one Calvinist on this forum will tell us how anyone who is already blind to the light of the gospel can be blinded to its light.

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    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    There are three categories, not two.


    The third is self-determination.
    How do you see 'self-determination' as distinct from 'not determined,' wrt believing the Gospel? To my mind, we're either prevented from believing it, or we are not, and if we are not prevented from believing the Gospel, then if we do believe the Gospel, then it is because we wanted to choose to believe the Gospel. How do you see it?
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I am waiting for even one Calvinist to actually address the passage from the Bible which is the subject of this thread. The following words of Paul demonstrate that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe:

    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"
    (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

    The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.

    The truth that all men have the ability to believe the gospel and therefore receive the benefits which flow from the Lord Jesus' death prove that the Lord Jesus died for every person who has ever lived on the face of the earth.

    Maybe there is at least one Calvinist on this forum will tell us how anyone who is already blind to the light of the gospel can be blinded to its light.
    Who permits 'the god of this age' to blind 'the minds of unbelievers?'
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I am waiting for even one Calvinist to actually address the passage from the Bible which is the subject of this thread. The following words of Paul demonstrate that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe:

    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"
    (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

    The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.

    The truth that all men have the ability to believe the gospel and therefore receive the benefits which flow from the Lord Jesus' death prove that the Lord Jesus died for every person who has ever lived on the face of the earth.

    Maybe there is at least one Calvinist on this forum will tell us how anyone who is already blind to the light of the gospel can be blinded to its light.
    There's not one scripture that states anyone has the ability to believe let alone the lost and perishing. In fact there's a scripture that says specifically that the Gospel is hidden to them that are lost. 2 Cor 4:3

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    Let us look at...the rest of the story so that Shugart can see God's Sovereign choice being taught by Paul, as inspired by God.

    4 Therefore, since God in his mercy has given us this new way, we never give up.2 We reject all shameful deeds and underhanded methods. We donít try to trick anyone or distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know this.

    3 If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. 4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who donít believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They donít understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

    5 You see, we donít go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesusí sake. 6 For God, who said, ďLet there be light in the darkness,Ē has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

    1) In verse 1 we read that...God...gives salvation. (Men don't decide to take it.)
    2) Christians just speak truth about Jesus reconciliation.
    3) God knows who are perishing.
    4) God ordains that Satan be able to blind the eyes of people who are perishing. (So much for universalism)
    5) God has ordained that the light would shine in the hearts of those who are not perishing.

    So, Jerry, the passage surrounding your verses teaches God's Sovereign choice...the exact opposite of your premise. Your own verses condemn your theory.
    Now, a Reformed Christian has directly addressed your lie. Deal with it.

  18. #59
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    So, Jerry, the passage surrounding your verses teaches God's Sovereign choice...the exact opposite of your premise. Your own verses condemn your theory.
    Now, a Reformed Christian has directly addressed your lie. Deal with it.
    You did nothing but evade the issue. The Apostle Paul plainly stated that those who are perishing were blinded to the light of the gospel.

    No one can be blinded unless they can first see the light!

    Your whole theology, from beginning to end, is dependent on the idea that those who were already blind to the light of the gospel can be blinded again!

    Are you really this dense?

  19. #60
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Who permits 'the god of this age' to blind 'the minds of unbelievers?'
    So?

    That does not change the fact that even those who are perishing have the ability to see the light of the gospel. Are you willing to argue that the "god of this age" can blind them even though they are already blind?

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