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Thread: Calvinism: Only Some People Have the Ability to Believe the Gospel

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    So, you found an apparent contradiction.
    Now, what are you going to do with it?
    I'm betting he doesn't go back and read the scripture that is being quoted. If he did, he might know what Paul is saying. What fool is not seeking God?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    As usual you talk big but when it comes to providing anything to support what you assert you come up empty.

    Can you not even understand that before a person can be blinded to the light of the gospel he must first be able to see its light?

    According to your ideas we must throw our reason to the wind and imagine that someone who cannot see the light of the gospel can be blinded to its light.
    Can you not understand that a dead man cannot see, cannot hear and cannot believe until he is first made alive in Christ?
    Can a dead man make themselves come to life...or must God make them alive? What sayeth the Bible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I'm betting he doesn't go back and read the scripture that is being quoted. If he did, he might know what Paul is saying. What fool is not seeking God?
    I'm betting that you think Paul is teaching free will when he speaks to the Athenians? I'm betting you ignore the rest of scripture to force your philosophy into scripture.

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    Let's go back to the original premise:
    "Only some people have the ability to believe."
    This presupposes that humans conjure up their own belief. It presupposes their own effort and work so that they can believe. It is like saying: Only some people have the ability to swim. It's all about the human will and effort to accomplish something. It also presupposes that some other power is holding back and keeping the human from successfully training itself to do the work of believing.
    Such a presupposition denies grace from God and demands that each person work for salvation based upon their ability to do so.
    Reformed theology notes that the Bible says we all fall short. We are all dead in our trespasses and sins. We all are entirely dependent upon the mercy of the King of Kings. God makes the choice. God does the work. God is Sovereign.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Can you not understand that a dead man cannot see, cannot hear and cannot believe until he is first made alive in Christ?
    Faith is what causes being made alive in Christ:

    "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

    The Calvinists cannot even understand this simple fact. Life comes as a result of believing and not before believing, as they imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    This presupposes that humans conjure up their own belief. It presupposes their own effort and work so that they can believe.
    A person has to hear the gospel before he can believe and be saved. Perhaps you haven't gotten around to reading the tenth chapter of the epistle to the Romans yet (Ro.10:13-17)?

    Since the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Pet.1:12) anyone can be saved if they don't resist the Spirit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Faith is what causes being made alive in Christ:

    "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

    The Calvinists cannot even understand this simple fact. Life comes as a result of believing and not before believing, as they imagine.



    A person has to hear the gospel before he can believe and be saved. Perhaps you haven't gotten around to reading the tenth chapter of the epistle to the Romans yet (Ro.10:13-17)?

    Since the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Pet.1:12) anyone can be saved if they don't resist the Spirit.
    A person, dead in their trespasses and sins cannot conjure up faith, just as a physically dead human cannot physically walk to the Chinese restaurant and eat Peking Chicken.
    The Bible tells us that GOD makes us alive in Christ Jesus, not faith. Faith is not a cause agent. Faith is an effect given to those who have been caused, by God, to be made alive in Christ. Ephesians 2:1-10 is so very clear on this. You have outright contradicted God by stating "faith is what causes being made alive in Christ." God does not say what you have stated. Go read for yourself.

    Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devilóthe commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to Godís anger, just like everyone else.

    4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by Godís grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

    8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you canít take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are Godís masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

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    jerry

    Faith is what causes being made alive in Christ:
    False statement nowhere to be found in scripture. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 so they who have it evidently have the Spirit of Christ
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    jerry
    A person has to hear the gospel before he can believe and be saved.
    Exactly and one must be of God to hear Gods words Jn 8:43,47

    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
    Now according to Jesus who is it that hears Gods words, which the Gospel is ?
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Can you not understand that a dead man cannot see, cannot hear and cannot believe until he is first made alive in Christ?
    Can a dead man make themselves come to life...or must God make them alive? What sayeth the Bible?
    You argue, I, assume, citing Ephesians 2:1 KJV, that dead men can't respond.

    Survey Romans 6 KJV-to whom is Paul addressing? Saints, members of the boc-"ye:"

    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.



    If being dead in sin means one can't respond to God, "a dead man cannot see, cannot hear and cannot believe..."-then does being dead to sin mean that the Christian, the saved individual, who has the spirit of Christ within them, cannot respond to sin?

    Well?


    John 5 KJV
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


    The hearing, precedes the living.....How can one hear anything, Calvinist/Clavinist, if, according to your own argument,he/she is "dead? The Calvinist would argue men/women are "dead, unconscious, unresponsive, and unaware," akin to the corpses lying in the cemeteries, yet the Lord Jesus Christ asserts that they could hear.


    Well?
    Last edited by john w; October 3rd, 2018 at 03:16 PM.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I'm betting that you think Paul is teaching free will when he speaks to the Athenians? I'm betting you ignore the rest of scripture to force your philosophy into scripture.
    Did you go back and read the Scripture Paul was quoting?

    I rest my case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Did you go back and read the Scripture Paul was quoting?

    I rest my case.
    From Acts 17? Yes. You are twisted up to read free will into Paul's dialogue with the Athenians.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    From Acts 17? Yes. You are twisted up to read free will into Paul's dialogue with the Athenians.
    No, from Psalms....14 and 53


    And, I'm not "twisted up" about what Paul says, either.

    Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    No, from Psalms....14 and 53


    And, I'm not "twisted up" about what Paul says, either.

    Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
    Those whom God makes alive in Christ do seek God. Those whom God leaves in their state of deadness do not seek God. There is no contradiction with Paul's quoting the Psalms and declaring that no one seeks God, not even one.

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    Again, the very thread title is false, which means the OP has started with a false position and he cannot rectify it by trying to prove it correct. Wrong is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Those whom God makes alive in Christ do seek God. Those whom God leaves in their state of deadness do not seek God. There is no contradiction with Paul's quoting the Psalms and declaring that no one seeks God, not even one.
    Ah, so you get to add, "Those whom God makes alive in Christ do seek God".
    You're claiming Paul just neglected to state that, as did the author of the Psalm?

    What would we do without you?

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