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Thread: Are You Qualified to be the Executioner?

  1. #61
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    And killed because of it.
    What should Lennie's brother have done to protect society from his brother Lennie?
    Given the time, there wasn't much more he could have done as it was. Not like there were adequate care homes about. What do you think he should have done, just killed him in case he accidentally killed someone?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    The main theme in Of Mice and Men is the American depression.
    Duh.

    Yes, Lennie's killed animals in the book but again, never intentionally.
    Never intentionally, but always when he's lost control, which is often enough for the story to make mention of it a few different times throughout the book.

    He's a grown man with immense physical strength who doesn't realize how much and with the mind a child, something Curly finds out when he tries to beat him up and has his hand crushed for his effort.
    And it's because he doesn't recognize his own strength AND that he loses control often that makes him dangerous.

    Even then Lennie isn't violent
    Crushing a man's hand isn't violent?

    or wants anything to do with violence.
    So?

    He doesn't know his own strength, and he loses control often, and often kills creatures around him because of it, and eventually he ended up killing a human.



    If an ox kills someone, the Bible says it should be put to death.
    But if the ox is known to have been dangerous in the past, both ox and it's owner should be put to death.

    Sounds like George is in trouble too, for not restraining George.

    His character didn't deserve to be executed by anybody.
    So a murderer doesn't deserve to be executed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    No, it isn't
    Yes, it is.

    and this is such an ignorant statement to make.
    It's not.

    I'm with a company that specialises in domiciliary care with the aim to help people live as independently as possible and for as long as possible in their own homes.
    Good for you!

    Not everybody has a family or friends for support and that isn't always because they've been abandoned either.
    Pretty sure we're not talking about those without families here...

    I mean, if someone has an elderly family member, especially if it's their parent, they should try to put some effort in returning the favor of them having to raise the person. That precludes those who do not have families.

    Even with those who have loving families then they can't always be there twenty four seven or even be capable of dispensing the required care in plenty cases.
    Why not? Which is more important to them, having a job and making money? or taking care of the one who raised you?

    Often, care workers help out families by providing much needed additional support.
    Nothing wrong with that.

    In other areas the family can't give the support required in cases of extreme mental health conditions and challenging behaviours.
    So put them in an environment where they don't know anyone? Sounds like a real charming place to be.

    I mean, I'm all for having someone help take care of someone who is disabled, I'm against dumping that person in an environment where the family member can easily forget about them.

    In some cases people need a care home environment tailored to their specific needs, it doesn't mean their family doesn't care or visit.
    No, but it sure does make it far easier for them to be able to stop caring or visiting.

    On the first point, garbage. On the second, economics can play a part but care still needs to be paid for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    He's simply a guy who doesn't know his own strength.
    Which inherently makes him dangerous, let alone the fact that he easily loses control of himself.

    He never intends to kill animal or human in the book. The only time he resorts to violence is when he protects himself from Curly's assault.
    Addressed above.

    There's ways to protect society from unwitting people like Lennie besides killing them.
    LIke locking them up in some room somewhere and forgetting about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Locking them away for life would have achieved the same result.
    Weren't they already locked up? or were they released from prison after a few years? I forget.

    Oh, and locking someone up doesn't prevent them from committing more crime.

    Executing someone for committing a capital crime is the only 100% guaranteed solution for making sure he doesn't commit another crime.

    Now, instead of stopping at murder, they're now guilty of pedophilia, all because you people are too nice to the criminals.

    I would not agree with your analyses at all. That he is not abusing her at this particular moment does not mean that he is not still an abuser just waiting till the time when he will abuse her again.
    If a man is beating his wife, and she's desperately reaching around for something to defend herself with, and manages to grab a baseball bat, and whacks him over the head with it to stop him, but accidentally kills him, then there is no fault against her. But if she, while he's not assaulting her, but instead calmly reading a newspaper at the kitchen table, takes a bat and starts beating his head to a pulp, she is guilty of murder, because he was not doing anything wrong at the time.

    Obviously, this scenario assumes she has not gone to the police yet to report her husband for abusing her, which would result in him being flogged, and could potentially result in her divorcing him.

    I do not consider Bob Enyart an inspired teacher.
    Who said anything about being "inspired"?

    He's correcting the misreading of scripture. Nothing more, nothing less.

    The Gospel is supposed to be Good News. It is supposed to give people hope that God wants everybody to live with Him in Heaven. Few will accept the invitation but it is available to all.
    Ok, and?

    Yet so many Christians preach that God wants homosexuals and adulterers and rape victims and fornicators and kids who smite their parents
    That law was for Israel only, because it was a symbolic law, and therefore no longer should be enforced.

    and false witness
    Not necessarily.

    all stoned to death.
    Yeah, because that's God's standard of justice for those crimes. Who are you to say they should be different?

    In the ONLY example we have from Christ,
    Nope, not the only example.

    you know, our Lord and Savior, Jesus forgave the woman.
    Again, no He did not forgive her. He simply didn't condemn her, which comes before repentance, which comes before forgiveness, according to JESUS, you know, our Lord and Savior and God...

    Interestingly, she did not even ask for forgiveness and He still forgave here.
    Saying it doesn't make it so.

    Repeatedly saying it doesn't make it so either, it just means you're committing the fallacy of "proof by repeated assertion".

    Jesus didn't forgive her. It's not in the text.

    It says he didn't condemn her.

    What is your measure? Are you comfortable being judged by your measure?
    My measure is Christ's righteousness, you know, the one who wrote the law given to Moses...

    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    All sinners. All.
    So does that mean that ALL are going to heaven, because ALL are forgiven? What are you, some kind of universalist? I mean, you say that Christ forgave all, so that means that all will go to heaven, and no one will be punished!



    It is not your sins that condemn you before God, it is what you do with His Son in your life. If you surrender to Jesus and follow in His footsteps, you will be welcomed home. How do you know if you are following in His footsteps. Read my signature.


    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Ah, but there is the question!
    Huh? Where?

    In a civil society, laws are required to maintain order. The only thing a law can do, any law (including God's law), is to set forth unacceptable acts and proscribe punishment. A law, including God's law, cannot save anybody, they can only condemn.
    Duh!

    I support the laws that we make to manage and maintain our society including the punishment prescribed by those laws.
    So if man's laws differ from God's laws, which should we use? Man's or God's?

    But God's expectations for me as a believer are different.
    So you think there's multiple standards of righteousness?

    I do not believe that God wants me to be the executioner, He wants me to be the one helps a prodigal child return home to the Father that loves them. Killing people is easy. Turning a soul towards Christ is hard and much more rewarding.

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  4. #63
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Duh.
    You say "duh" and yet I doubt you really have understood the book on any kinda level.

    Never intentionally, but always when he's lost control, which is often enough for the story to make mention of it a few different times throughout the book.
    What do you suppose the point Steinbeck might have been making with that? That Lennie should have been a character that should be put to the sword?

    And it's because he doesn't recognize his own strength AND that he loses control often that makes him dangerous.
    Oh, so let's just kill the guy then eh? Let's just put him on a par with a cold blooded individual who kills with intent and get rid of him?

    Crushing a man's hand isn't violent?
    He doesn't know his own strength and is responding to an assault, remember? Honestly, do you even have a box you can actually think out of?

    So?

    He doesn't know his own strength, and he loses control often, and often kills creatures around him because of it, and eventually he ended up killing a human.



    If an ox kills someone, the Bible says it should be put to death.
    But if the ox is known to have been dangerous in the past, both ox and it's owner should be put to death.

    Sounds like George is in trouble too, for not restraining George.
    Oh, grief, you're back to the ox stuff again and now George should be held accountable for not being able to monitor Lennie 24 hours a day? Can you actually think outside of some doctrinal box JR or what is even the point in discussing the finer points of literature with you?

    So a murderer doesn't deserve to be executed?
    Lennie isn't a murderer.



    It's not.
    It absolutely is and for all the reasons I'd provided already.

    Good for you!
    Why? shouldn't any sort of care work be redundant according to you?

    Pretty sure we're not talking about those without families here...

    I mean, if someone has an elderly family member, especially if it's their parent, they should try to put some effort in returning the favor of them having to raise the person. That precludes those who do not have families.
    And where it comes to dementia and where family can't be there 24 hours a day to be there to ensure their wellbeing? You're full of pompous platitudes as to what should be done but you don't have a clue of the reality of such situations for people and families. Care isn't a "light" thing at all and when you grow up a bit (hopefully) you'll realize why there's an essential need for professional care services.

    Why not? Which is more important to them, having a job and making money? or taking care of the one who raised you?
    Yeh, cos it's just as black and white as that and anyone who seeks care for a loved one is doing so because they're an inconvenience and just interfering with their life. You really are just a clueless kid.



    Nothing wrong with that.
    Oh, so now you're all okay with care workers as long as they're providing additional support? Hey, why the need for them at all if the family just steps "up to the plate" and removes the need altogether right?

    So put them in an environment where they don't know anyone? Sounds like a real charming place to be.
    In some cases they don't have the capacity to know their carers or anyone else on any "meaningful" level because of their illness so start thinking things through before you type stuff out.

    I mean, I'm all for having someone help take care of someone who is disabled, I'm against dumping that person in an environment where the family member can easily forget about them.
    Ya, cos that's what I've been arguing for, an environment where people can just be discarded and forgotten about.



    No, but it sure does make it far easier for them to be able to stop caring or visiting.
    You should have just stopped at "No".

    Which inherently makes him dangerous, let alone the fact that he easily loses control of himself.
    Well, let's do away with "The World's Strongest Man" contests in case one of them loses their temper for coming second...


    Addressed above.
    Um, no.

    LIke locking them up in some room somewhere and forgetting about them?
    Nope.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    You've been drinking again, haven't you?

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    You say "duh" and yet I doubt you really have understood the book on any kinda level.

    What do you suppose the point Steinbeck might have been making with that? That Lennie should have been a character that should be put to the sword?

    Oh, so let's just kill the guy then eh? Let's just put him on a par with a cold blooded individual who kills with intent and get rid of him?
    You sure do like to respond to what you wanted me to say instead of what I actually said...

    He doesn't know his own strength and is responding to an assault, remember?
    Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"?

    Anyways, defending oneself is one thing. Crushing someone's hand because they're assaulting you is not an appropriate escalation of force.

    And don't forget that Lennie didn't even start responding to the assault until George told him to...

    Honestly, do you even have a box you can actually think out of?
    Is all you have personal attacks?

    Oh, grief, you're back to the ox stuff again and now George should be held accountable for not being able to monitor Lennie 24 hours a day?
    Considering that George is Lennie's de facto guardian, yes (excluding obviously when Lennie sleeps).

    Can you actually think outside of some doctrinal box JR or what is even the point in discussing the finer points of literature with you?
    Are you able to respond to my posts without resorting to ad hominem attacks such as this one?

    Lennie isn't a murderer.
    Because you say so?



    It absolutely is and for all the reasons I'd provided already.

    Why? shouldn't any sort of care work be redundant according to you?

    And where it comes to dementia and where family can't be there 24 hours a day to be there to ensure their wellbeing? You're full of pompous platitudes as to what should be done but you don't have a clue of the reality of such situations for people and families. Care isn't a "light" thing at all and when you grow up a bit (hopefully) you'll realize why there's an essential need for professional care services.

    Yeh, cos it's just as black and white as that and anyone who seeks care for a loved one is doing so because they're an inconvenience and just interfering with their life. You really are just a clueless kid.



    Oh, so now you're all okay with care workers as long as they're providing additional support? Hey, why the need for them at all if the family just steps "up to the plate" and removes the need altogether right?

    In some cases they don't have the capacity to know their carers or anyone else on any "meaningful" level because of their illness so start thinking things through before you type stuff out.

    Ya, cos that's what I've been arguing for, an environment where people can just be discarded and forgotten about.



    You should have just stopped at "No".

    Well, let's do away with "The World's Strongest Man" contests in case one of them loses their temper for coming second...
    Pretty sure that's called an "appeal to absurdity" fallacy...

    Um, no.

    Nope.

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  9. #66
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    You sure do like to respond to what you wanted me to say instead of what I actually said...


    Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"?

    Anyways, defending oneself is one thing. Crushing someone's hand because they're assaulting you is not an appropriate escalation of force.

    And don't forget that Lennie didn't even start responding to the assault until George told him to...
    I don't think that meant just standing there and allowing yourself to be beaten to a pulp, and again, Lennie doesn't know his own strength.

    Is all you have personal attacks?
    That wasn't a personal attack although you can always thank the resident bridge dweller when he inevitably reappears with a drive by troll...

    Considering that George is Lennie's de facto guardian, yes (excluding obviously when Lennie sleeps).
    okayyy then.



    Are you able to respond to my posts without resorting to ad hominem attacks such as this one?
    That wasn't an ad hominem attack, it was a question.


    Because you say so?
    No, because common sense, logic and the law says so. Murder is the premeditated killing of another.

    Pretty sure that's called an "appeal to absurdity" fallacy...
    Pretty sure that's a lame dodge.

    You can shake your head all you want.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    It isn't like it's ever going to happen, is it?
    So your gutless position is for execution based on the presumption that "It isn't like it's ever going to happen."?

    Are you simply anti-liberal posturing or do you actually favor executing 6-year olds who kill?
    _/\_

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Adolf? Does the left never get tired of beating the same old dead horse.
    You mean outdated pachyderm?

    Nope!
    _/\_

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    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    So your gutless position is for execution based on the presumption that "It isn't like it's ever going to happen."?

    Are you simply anti-liberal posturing or do you actually favor executing 6-year olds who kill?
    Thompson and venables deliberately and with full knowledge of their actions chose to kidnap, torture and murder two year old James Patrick Bulger

    I say they should have been executed for their crimes

    What do you say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    Thompson and venables deliberately and with full knowledge of their actions chose to kidnap, torture and murder two year old James Patrick Bulger

    I say they should have been executed for their crimes

    What do you say?
    Me: "No."
    _/\_

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    Dupe post.
    Last edited by quip; October 3rd, 2018 at 05:28 PM.
    _/\_

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    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    Me: "No."

    Because...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    Because...?
    Sift through thread...pick my prior response.
    _/\_

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    Because...?
    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    Sift through thread...pick my prior response.
    Iow, you're too lazy and you're just trolling the thread

    Ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    Iow, you're too lazy and you're just trolling the thread

    Ok
    Or...rational discourse with you is a wasted effort.
    _/\_

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