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Thread: Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

  1. #91
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The Bible proves you to be wrong.
    No, the Bible states in no uncertain terms that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things."

    Not in some things only, as you imagine.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    The Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY one who entered this world 'Sinless' and remained so, until the very end.
    So even though people are made in the image of God they enter the world with sin?

    In the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved by being made alive by the spirit:

    "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit"
    (Titus 3:5).

    The word "rebirth" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

    Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer).

    Genesis means "used of birth, nativity." (Thayer).

    So when we combine the two words the meaning is a repetition of a birth. Therefore, when Paul used the Greek word translated "rebirth" to describe his salvation experience he was speaking of a repetition of a birth.

    It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewal of the Holy Spirit."

    Since the renewal of the Holy Spirit is in regard to being made alive spiritually then the previous birth of the Spirit must also be in regard to being made alive spiritually by the Holy Spirit. In other words, since a person is "rebirthed" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. That happens at conception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No, the Bible states in no uncertain terms that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things."

    Not in some things only, as you imagine.
    Fine, then you believe Jesus was born a sinner in need of a Savior, because that is the only way you can take that verse completely literal in every aspect.
    What you are attempting to argue is that all humans have the potential to be completely perfect if somehow they are not introduced to sin. However, you ignore that scientists have shown that children can lie to parents by the age of 6 months. This is far before they could ever be trained to sin by other humans.
    You refuse to accept that humans are conceived as sinners under the curse. You deny Romans 5 and Psalm 51:5.

  4. #94
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Fine, then you believe Jesus was born a sinner in need of a Savior, because that is the only way you can take that verse completely literal in every aspect.
    God created mankind upright:

    "'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'"
    (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).

    The Lord Jesus was created upright just like His brethren. And here is the way that David said he was made by God:

    "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. "
    (Ps.139:13-14).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    God created mankind upright:

    "'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'"
    (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).

    The Lord Jesus was created upright just like His brethren. And here is the way that David said he was made by God:

    "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my motherís womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. "
    (Ps.139:13-14).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    God created mankind upright:

    "'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'"
    (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).

    The Lord Jesus was created upright just like His brethren. And here is the way that David said he was made by God:

    "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my motherís womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. "
    (Ps.139:13-14).
    Context in both passages proves you are butchering scripture in an attempt to make a fallacious argument.
    Jerry, you are wrong. We will not agree on the human condition.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    However, you ignore that scientists have shown that children can lie to parents by the age of 6 months.


    Matthew 18:2-3
    2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

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  8. #97
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Context in both passages proves you are butchering scripture in an attempt to make a fallacious argument.
    Prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Jerry, you are wrong. We will not agree on the human condition.
    As long as you continue to deny that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" then you will never see the truth:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

    Here is how David said he was made:

    "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well"
    (Ps.139:13-14).

    John Calvin wrote that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence."


    I think I will follow what David wrote because what Calvin said directly contradicts what David said. How could Calvin ever come to that conclusion since the Scriptures declare that God made man UPRIGHT?:

    "'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).

    The Bible says that God made man upright and Calvin said that everything that is in man is defiled from his intellect to his body and his soul.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The unconditional is only for those whom God elects to save. It is not for the unsaved.
    I don't know if I accept that yet - first I hear do it. Non-election IS conditional for those passed over for election. Hmmmm...I wonder if election is not for those not chosen for salvation for 1. no reason, for 2. an unknown reason or for 3. their sinfulness, which?? Are the non-elect not elected due to their sinfulness, yet the elect are elected IN THEIR SINS without any merit or condition or reason...?

    Are the non-elect not elected due to their sinfulness, yet the elect are elected IN SPITE OF their sinfulness and for no reason?

    This is sort of important to me because if the non-elect are not elected due to their sinfulness then this also applies to those chosen to be elect since they are sinful too.

    Therefore I think you have to just tell me what is the condition of those not saved that caused them to be passed over for election to heaven with the others. I can't figure it out...

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    God does treat everyone in love. Is it loving to ignore justice?
    No!

    Is it loving to save some from justice for no reason and not others? I don't think those passed over feel it is very loving to be damned for their sins since they are not being saved like the sinner right next to him. How do you explain that GOD is loving them when HE ignores them to be saved while HE saves the next guy for no reason? Would you want to be loved that way, passed over for salvation for your sins in the name of love while other sinners are elected to salvation for no reason for that same love?

    My goodness....
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Prove it.



    As long as you continue to deny that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" then you will never see the truth:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

    Here is how David said he was made:

    "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my motherís womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well"
    (Ps.139:13-14).

    John Calvin wrote that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence."


    I think I will follow what David wrote because what Calvin said directly contradicts what David said. How could Calvin ever come to that conclusion since the Scriptures declare that God made man UPRIGHT?:

    "'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).

    The Bible says that God made man upright and Calvin said that everything that is in man is defiled from his intellect to his body and his soul.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Prove it.



    As long as you continue to deny that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" then you will never see the truth:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).
    This is what you state with complete literalness.
    Therefore, you claim Jesus was born a sinner.
    Here is how David said he was made:

    "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my motherís womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well"
    (Ps.139:13-14).
    All humans are fearfully and wonderfully made. That does not remove the curse of sin that transfers from Adam to us. Read Romans 5.

    John Calvin wrote that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence."
    Paul wrote: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
    In your teaching, man has the capacity to be sinless without the need of God's atonement.
    [/QUOTE]
    I think I will follow what David wrote because what Calvin said directly contradicts what David said. How could Calvin ever come to that conclusion since the Scriptures declare that God made man UPRIGHT?:[/QUOTE]
    You mean Psalms 51:5 when David says he was a sinner at conception? Great, follow what David wrote.
    "'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).
    But zero upright women...by your teaching.
    Of course that must mean women are born sinners, but not men by your twisted theory.
    The Bible says that God made man upright and Calvin said that everything that is in man is defiled from his intellect to his body and his soul.
    But, there are no upright women...since you are taking "upright" to be a synonym to "perfect."

    At what point will you admit you have constructed one of the most moronic theories ever created by a sinner? Just wondering, because it isn't worth responding to you if you maintain such a poorly conceived theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    No!

    Is it loving to save some from justice for no reason and not others? I don't think those passed over feel it is very loving to be damned for their sins since they are not being saved like the sinner right next to him. How do you explain that GOD is loving them when HE ignores them to be saved while HE saves the next guy for no reason? Would you want to be loved that way, passed over for salvation for your sins in the name of love while other sinners are elected to salvation for no reason for that same love?

    My goodness....
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    No!

    Is it loving to save some from justice for no reason and not others? I don't think those passed over feel it is very loving to be damned for their sins since they are not being saved like the sinner right next to him. How do you explain that GOD is loving them when HE ignores them to be saved while HE saves the next guy for no reason? Would you want to be loved that way, passed over for salvation for your sins in the name of love while other sinners are elected to salvation for no reason for that same love?

    My goodness....
    It is extremely loving to die and take God's wrath to ransom a lawbreaker. If Jesus only died for one person it would be an example if extreme love.
    What is unloving is to leave broken laws unpunished and turn your back on justice.
    That is what you are demanding of God. It should shock you, but it doesn't.
    If God justly sends me to hell for my lawbreaking, I have nothing to blame God about. It is a just decision.
    If God chooses to random me, by placing my sin upon Jesus, then God has just been amazingly and supremely gracious because I did not deserve it.
    Honestly, you are really twisted up to imagine you can blame God for your evil behavior.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    It is extremely loving to die and take God's wrath to ransom a lawbreaker. If Jesus only died for one person it would be an example if extreme love.

    What is unloving is to leave broken laws unpunished and turn your back on justice.
    SAVING PEOPLE in Christ's love cannot be unjust! Does Christ saving them leave broken laws unpunished by turning the back on justice??? Of course not!!! So how does saving the non-elect in Christ leave broken laws unpunished by turning the back on justice?? Christ served justice in His death!!!

    Is Christ's dying for us unjust? Then how is it unjust to save everyone from their sins for no reason like HE did for some???

    That is what you are demanding of God. It should shock you, but it doesn't.
    If God justly sends me to hell for my lawbreaking, I have nothing to blame God about. It is a just decision.
    I got no problem with that; of course it was a just decision! But if HE saves some in Christ FOR NO REASON while leaving others in their sins to be damned, then I got a problem with the theology that claims this the truth, denying HIS love, denying HIS righteousness and denying HIS not wanting to see anyone die for their sins.

    If God chooses to random me, by placing my sin upon Jesus, then God has just been amazingly and supremely gracious because I did not deserve it.
    Nor did I deserve anything but hell yet HE brought me to Christ but no one has ever claimed to know why He apparently blesses some with this loving kindness but refused to bless everyone in the same way! If it is righteous to bless ONE sinner in Christ for no reason, then it is righteous to bless every sinner in Christ for no reason.

    I contend that there is a very good reason why HE loves and saves some and passes over the others for election unto salvation and that reason is what makes HIS partiality to the elect proper, wise and righteous while the rejection of the eternally evil ones is also proper, wise and righteous. My fight is with the U in unconditional!!!!

    Honestly, you are really twisted up to imagine you can blame God for your evil behavior.
    Honestly you are really twisted up to imagine you think I blame GOD for my sins! I suppose you have shut down many with this ad hominem attack but I am a real, brought to death by my sins yet saved by the love of Christ kind of convert...you only embarrass yourself because there is nothing in what I've written in this argument to suggest this remark! Nothing! You've crossed a line, bud.

    I know the ultimate disvalue of all my sins and the pain I've caused those I loved.

    I also know the love of Christ.
    I know that if HE can save someone, His love will save them.
    I know that if some are not saved then His love cannot save them.
    I know the unforgivable sin puts people outside of His loving grace.
    And I know the unforgivable sin makes it so that that sinner cannot be elected to salvation even though that 'breaks His heart'!

    I know that you know nothing of these things nor His love.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    SAVING PEOPLE in Christ's love cannot be unjust! Does Christ saving them leave broken laws unpunished by turning the back on justice??? Of course not!!! So how does saving the non-elect in Christ leave broken laws unpunished by turning the back on justice?? Christ served justice in His death!!!

    Is Christ's dying for us unjust? Then how is it unjust to save everyone from their sins for no reason like HE did for some???

    I got no problem with that; of course it was a just decision! But if HE saves some in Christ FOR NO REASON while leaving others in their sins to be damned, then I got a problem with the theology that claims this the truth, denying HIS love, denying HIS righteousness and denying HIS not wanting to see anyone die for their sins.

    Nor did I deserve anything but hell yet HE brought me to Christ but no one has ever claimed to know why He apparently blesses some with this loving kindness but refused to bless everyone in the same way! If it is righteous to bless ONE sinner in Christ for no reason, then it is righteous to bless every sinner in Christ for no reason.

    I contend that there is a very good reason why HE loves and saves some and passes over the others for election unto salvation and that reason is what makes HIS partiality to the elect proper, wise and righteous while the rejection of the eternally evil ones is also proper, wise and righteous. My fight is with the U in unconditional!!!!

    Honestly you are really twisted up to imagine you think I blame GOD for my sins! I suppose you have shut down many with this ad hominem attack but I am a real, brought to death by my sins yet saved by the love of Christ kind of convert...you only embarrass yourself because there is nothing in what I've written in this argument to suggest this remark! Nothing! You've crossed a line, bud.

    I know the ultimate disvalue of all my sins and the pain I've caused those I loved.

    I also know the love of Christ.
    I know that if HE can save someone, His love will save them.
    I know that if some are not saved then His love cannot save them.
    I know the unforgivable sin puts people outside of His loving grace.
    And I know the unforgivable sin makes it so that that sinner cannot be elected to salvation even though that 'breaks His heart'!

    I know that you know nothing of these things nor His love.
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    SAVING PEOPLE in Christ's love cannot be unjust! Does Christ saving them leave broken laws unpunished by turning the back on justice??? Of course not!!! So how does saving the non-elect in Christ leave broken laws unpunished by turning the back on justice?? Christ served justice in His death!!!

    Is Christ's dying for us unjust? Then how is it unjust to save everyone from their sins for no reason like HE did for some???

    I got no problem with that; of course it was a just decision! But if HE saves some in Christ FOR NO REASON while leaving others in their sins to be damned, then I got a problem with the theology that claims this the truth, denying HIS love, denying HIS righteousness and denying HIS not wanting to see anyone die for their sins.

    Nor did I deserve anything but hell yet HE brought me to Christ but no one has ever claimed to know why He apparently blesses some with this loving kindness but refused to bless everyone in the same way! If it is righteous to bless ONE sinner in Christ for no reason, then it is righteous to bless every sinner in Christ for no reason.

    I contend that there is a very good reason why HE loves and saves some and passes over the others for election unto salvation and that reason is what makes HIS partiality to the elect proper, wise and righteous while the rejection of the eternally evil ones is also proper, wise and righteous. My fight is with the U in unconditional!!!!

    Honestly you are really twisted up to imagine you think I blame GOD for my sins! I suppose you have shut down many with this ad hominem attack but I am a real, brought to death by my sins yet saved by the love of Christ kind of convert...you only embarrass yourself because there is nothing in what I've written in this argument to suggest this remark! Nothing! You've crossed a line, bud.

    I know the ultimate disvalue of all my sins and the pain I've caused those I loved.

    I also know the love of Christ.
    I know that if HE can save someone, His love will save them.
    I know that if some are not saved then His love cannot save them.
    I know the unforgivable sin puts people outside of His loving grace.
    And I know the unforgivable sin makes it so that that sinner cannot be elected to salvation even though that 'breaks His heart'!

    I know that you know nothing of these things nor His love.
    Is God obligated to ransom even one lawbreaker?
    Is God unjust if he does not ransom a lawbreaker?
    Is it unloving for God to execute justice on proven lawbreakers?

    You wrote: "I know that if HE can save someone, His love will save them."

    You must, therefore consider God to be extremely weak because many, many people die in their sins, unsaved.

    Jesus tells us that all whom God gives him will be saved. Do you declare that all whom God does not save is because God could not save them?

    How is it that you call God unloving because God does not save everyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post


    Matthew 18:2-3
    2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    Do you think MS will EVER get anywhere above his ZERO Rep?

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I don't even know what you mean by "John Calvin had his Calvinism right."
    I, unlike most of the people around here, do not make naked assertions. I have quoted Calvin directly several times in this thread already. I've quoted him unequivocally stating that people are not condemned for any reason other than that God was pleased to condemn them. It's a rather common Calvinist belief actually.

    Do you mean that Calvin observed God's means of salvation, as described in scripture, correctly?
    What?

    Just read the quotes and tell me if you agree with him or not!

    Do you wonder how Spurgeon could have a different observation?
    On the contrary, I don't wonder about any such thing. I quote him directly and let his own words say what he believed. My question isn't about what Spurgeon believed but whether it was consistent with the rest of his own doctrine, with what Calvin taught, and with the character of God and why or why not.

    Both Calvin and Spurgeon recognized that God chose to ransom reprobate humans, not because reprobate humans merited the ransom, but solely because God chose to be gracious. Neither is in disagreement with one another on this issue.
    Yes, I know that. One of them, however, is being consistent and the other is not. It seems like maybe you need to reread the OP.

    Your assertion is odd to me. It seems you are attempting to create a conflict where none exists.
    That's because you aren't reading my posts. Either that or you need to make the argument!

    If I've set up a straw man, whether intentionally or through ignorance, then do something besides just make the assertion. MAKE THE ARGUMENT!!!! That's what we are all here for!


    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Grosnick Marowbe (October 1st, 2018),ttruscott (October 1st, 2018)

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