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Thread: Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I answered and my answer concerns the way all people enter the world. Not about what happens afterwards.

    And since the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren in "all things" we can know that all people enter the world perfect.
    Scripture says we enter as corrupted people. (Psalm 51 and Romans 5)
    What happens in life, after the womb, is that we start acting out our sin nature.
    You must accept one of the two choices I have pointed out. Which one is it?

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Unconditional election or election without merit means we have some going to hell for no reason and no dis-merit of their own.


    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    False.
    It means that all merit condemnation by being born as sinners. All humans are justly condemned because of the curse of sin.
    AGREED. All humans merit condemnation for their sins. Merit to condemnation is not in dispute but it is also NOT the point. Merit to be saved, ie not to be condemned, is the point.

    Some are saved for no merit to be saved yet others who also have no merit to be saved are not saved!
    NO condition means no reason as a good reason produces a condition for applying or not applying the reason to people. An unknown reason is also a condition as it causes some to come under the condition and not others so there is a condition...it is just not known to us so unconditional cannot mean of an unknown condition. I know some people are content to worship a God who does things like condemn billions for no reason but I do not - rather I believe the theology is suspect and that a reasonable condition does in fact prevail to have HIM elect some for salvation from their sins and others to be passed over for election unto salvation.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Do we really believe that God is this arbitrary?


    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    There is nothing arbitrary about God. God, however, is under no obligation to reveal the reason for His choice. That humans are incapable of discerning why God makes choices, it does not follow that God is arbitrary.
    OF course our ignorance does not even hint that HE is arbitrary but the world 'unconditional' sure does even for an unknown condition. A condition is a reason. Unconditional means there is no reason for the choice.

    Some are elected for no condition, ie, no reason is found or can be found in them to be elected. IF a reason is found in the others as to why they were NOT elected, then that reason must not be found in those elected and that is their merit, their condition, ie they do not have the reason to not to be elected found in them. In other words, the non-elect have no dis-merit, disqualifying condition nor disqualifying reason found in them. If such a disqualifying reason is found in them, then the lack of that reason is a merit or a condition for those elected to not be passed over for receiving election.

    This is why the word "UNCONDITIONAL" forces the implication that GOD damns billions for no reason (ie arbitrarily) but maybe for the fact that HE arbitrarily just does not like them, for no reason. I cannot accept this theology any more...my GOD is not like this.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Ok fine. Whatever. But if you want to change the subject why not just start your own thread instead of plopping a bunch of stuff no one asked you about into my thread?
    If you're interested in discussing the issue I present in the OP then I'd appreciate your participation.
    I'm sorry, I took your words,
    In a sentence, If God is just then the concepts of unconditional election and predestination cannot both be true, even by Calvinist's own understanding of these terms.
    as an invitation to share my hermeneutic for the rejection of the doctrine of unconditionality for election.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The reason God does not save everyone is because He is not obligated to do so.
    What God is obligated to do, by His law and by His nature, is to act justly.
    GOD is also obligated to treat people lovingly righteous in accordance with HIS character.

    Is it just to punish lawbreakers?
    Yes or no.
    Yes.

    God had the punishment of some lawbreakers fall upon Jesus. Was God unfair to bring His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity, but not all humanity?
    Yes or no?
    IF there was love or mercy or justice in bringing His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity FOR NO REASON then to not treat all others FOR NO REASON with the same love or mercy and justice is unfair, unloving, non-merciful to them bringing EVEN this concept of justice into disrepute...not GOD's justice but Calvin's sense of HIS justice.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    I'm sorry, I took your words,as an invitation to share my hermeneutic for the rejection of the doctrine of unconditionality for election.
    The ENTIRE Calvinist system is irrational from top to bottom. You're modifications are only adds more inconsistency on top of what was already utter insanity. Do yourself a favor and throw the whole mess in the trash and begin from scratch, leaving all the pagan Greek philosophical ideas about what God is supposed to be out of it.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    genuineoriginal (October 2nd, 2018),Grosnick Marowbe (September 30th, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    IF there was love or mercy or justice in bringing His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity FOR NO REASON then to not treat all others FOR NO REASON with the same love or mercy and justice is unfair, unloving, non-merciful to them bringing EVEN this concept of justice into disrepute...not GOD's justice but Calvin's sense of HIS justice.
    Quite right!

    But it isn't just unconditional election that gets crushed by this most universally understood of all Christian precepts (i.e. justice). Not only does the doctrine of unconditional election follow rationally from Calvinism's primary premises, it is those very premises that are destroyed by the qualiitative attributes of God (e.g. living, personal, just, caring, kind, loving, etc.). No such attribute can exist in the immutable, impassible, control freak god of Calvinism.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I answered and my answer concerns the way all people enter the world. Not about what happens afterwards.

    And since the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren in "all things" we can know that all people enter the world perfect.
    The Bible proves you to be wrong. Humans are conceived as sinful rebels. This is the curse of Adam described in Romans 5. At this point you have chosen to deny what scripture teaches regarding human nature. There is no more discussion we can have as you have chosen a false premise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The reason God does not save everyone is because He is not obligated to do so.
    What God is obligated to do, by His law and by His nature, is to act justly.
    Is it just to punish lawbreakers?
    Yes or no.
    God had the punishment of some lawbreakers fall upon Jesus. Was God unfair to bring His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity, but not all humanity?
    Yes or no?
    Some lawbreakers? (sinners) Your 'opinion' is in direct contradiction to the written Word of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Do we really believe that God is this arbitrary?




    OF course our ignorance does not even hint that HE is arbitrary but the world 'unconditional' sure does even for an unknown condition. A condition is a reason. Unconditional means there is no reason for the choice.

    Some are elected for no condition, ie, no reason is found or can be found in them to be elected. IF a reason is found in the others as to why they were NOT elected, then that reason must not be found in those elected and that is their merit, their condition, ie they do not have the reason to not to be elected found in them. In other words, the non-elect have no dis-merit, disqualifying condition nor disqualifying reason found in them. If such a disqualifying reason is found in them, then the lack of that reason is a merit or a condition for those elected to not be passed over for receiving election.

    This is why the word "UNCONDITIONAL" forces the implication that GOD damns billions for no reason (ie arbitrarily) but maybe for the fact that HE arbitrarily just does not like them, for no reason. I cannot accept this theology any more...my GOD is not like this.
    The unconditional is only for those whom God elects to save. It is not for the unsaved. If you cannot accept that, then that's on you, not on Calvin or Spurgeon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    GOD is also obligated to treat people lovingly righteous in accordance with HIS character.

    Yes.

    IF there was love or mercy or justice in bringing His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity FOR NO REASON then to not treat all others FOR NO REASON with the same love or mercy and justice is unfair, unloving, non-merciful to them bringing EVEN this concept of justice into disrepute...not GOD's justice but Calvin's sense of HIS justice.
    God does treat everyone in love. Is it loving to ignore justice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Scripture says we enter as corrupted people. (Psalm 51 and Romans 5)
    What happens in life, after the womb, is that we start acting out our sin nature.
    You must accept one of the two choices I have pointed out. Which one is it?
    You finally opined something that 'Old GM' agrees with. Since Adam's fall, I'm of the opinion that ALL are born into sin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The unconditional is only for those whom God elects to save. It is not for the unsaved. If you cannot accept that, then that's on you, not on Calvin or Spurgeon.


    No, that's on you, Calvin, Augustine, and Spurgeon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The reason God does not save everyone is because He is not obligated to do so.
    What God is obligated to do, by His law and by His nature, is to act justly.
    Is it just to punish lawbreakers?
    Yes or no.
    God had the punishment of some lawbreakers fall upon Jesus. Was God unfair to bring His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity, but not all humanity?
    Yes or no?
    God is not ONLY Just, but He is also: loving, merciful, and willing that NONE should perish. (2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." I realize 'you Calvinists' CHANGE the meaning: "That none should perish" too: "That none of the 'Elect' should perish." Your 'belief SYSTEM requires you to change the meaning of certain verses.

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    The Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY one who entered this world 'Sinless' and remained so, until the very end.

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