User Tag List

Page 5 of 20 FirstFirst ... 234567815 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 296

Thread: Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

  1. #61
    Over 1500 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,640
    Thanks
    144
    Thanked 194 Times in 168 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Amen!

    Indeed we do as sinful humans but what of when we were elected before the foundation of the world??

    I contend that the sinful elect are perfectly and justly punished for their sins...

    All? is there then no wrath for the Satanic?

    Ah, now I can agree - all the wrath for HIS Sinful elect fell on our Christ to ransome us, perhaps, if Jn 3:18 is accepted in a certain way, (John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned,) sinful believers are never condemned for their sins...though our debt must be paid.

    Surely fairness is found in treating everyone, well, fairly... IF HE has a reason for electing some and does not apply that blessing to others for no reason, is that fair? Yet iff some measure up to HIS reason for election but others do not, how is that not fair?

    I am not arguing against GOD when I argue against a theology that mifiestly claims GOD is unfair!!! I mention that unfairness not because I believe GOD to be unfair but to show there is a theology that it claims GOD is unfair but pretends they do not.

    IF there is no merit to our election, then there must be no merit to the non-election of others. IF there is a reason for their not being elected that we don't know about, then there is merit for those elected for not being identified with the reason that caused the others to be not elected. Capish? Unconditional election doesn't mean that we don't know the reason for our election ! it claims there is no condition for our election, no merit at at all! Replay this doctrine about the non-elect and how they are treated without condition or merit to end in hell and it all goes to hell in a handbasket!

    Unconditional election or election without merit means we have some going to hell for no reason and no dis-merit of their own. Do we really believe that God is this arbitrary? Well, yes I did for a while because I could think of any other way to proceed but, as many of you know by now, I was then taught about our Pre-Conception Existence and how it answers this blasphemy so we need not base our Church upon it anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    IF there is no merit to our election, then there must be no merit to the non-election of others.
    False
    Our sin merits God act justly toward that sin.
    IF there is a reason for their not being elected that we don't know about, then there is merit for those elected for not being identified with the reason that caused the others to be not elected. Capish?
    No, this statement is gibberish.
    Unconditional election doesn't mean that we don't know the reason for our election ! it claims there is no condition for our election, no merit at at all!
    Correct. We are at the mercy of God. We provide God nothing that merits our pardon.
    Replay this doctrine about the non-elect and how they are treated without condition or merit to end in hell and it all goes to hell in a handbasket!
    Not at all.
    All humanity is justly condemned for their law breaking against God.
    Unconditional election or election without merit means we have some going to hell for no reason and no dis-merit of their own.
    False
    It means that all merit condemnation by being born as sinners. All humans are justly condemned because of the curse of sin.
    Do we really believe that God is this arbitrary?
    There is nothing arbitrary about God. God, however, is under no obligation to reveal the reason for His choice. That humans are incapable of discerning why God makes choices, it does not follow that God is arbitrary. Just as infants cannot grasp the reason why a parent decided something, so it is with humans and God. Paul expresses this very thought in Romans 9.
    Well, yes I did for a while because I could think of any other way to proceed but, as many of you know by now, I was then taught about our Pre-Conception Existence and how it answers this blasphemy so we need not base our Church upon it anymore.
    Sounds like you have been taught a false doctrine.

  2. #62
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,172
    Thanks
    490
    Thanked 6,032 Times in 3,230 Posts

    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147762
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    This is my argument in full, written any number of times where I suspect someone might be interested. I sincerely don't think you could ever find it on google but go for it and if you do find it, it will be under my name. I copy myself as I don't always have time to rework the whole thing over and over and over, but I have never copied anything in this argument from anything I found on google.

    If you don't like that, pass on by...and be well.
    Ok fine. Whatever. But if you want to change the subject why not just start your own thread instead of plopping a bunch of stuff no one asked you about into my thread?

    If you're interested in discussing the issue I present in the OP then I'd appreciate your participation.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    Grosnick Marowbe (September 30th, 2018)

  4. #63
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,172
    Thanks
    490
    Thanked 6,032 Times in 3,230 Posts

    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147762
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    We all have sin. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
    We all have "dis-merit" so that God must judge justly against ALL humanity.
    Do you imagine the elect are not judged justly?
    All of God's wrath against sin fell upon Jesus on the cross...because of the elects sin. This is an incredible act of grace in ransoming the elect.
    Is it unfair that God would choose to ransom some, but not all? Can you or I accuse God of being unfair when we did not deserve God's gracious action in ransoming us?
    This argument assumes free will! IT FLAT OUT DOES ASSUME THAT MAN IS SOVERIEGN OVER HIS DEPRAVITY! Just as Spurgeon argued in the quotes I presented in the opening post. The only way that God's punishment of sin is if we could have done otherwise. That denies both exhaustive divine predestination and total depravity. Again, I give you the words of Calvin himself...

    “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

    “thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

    ”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)

    “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

    “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

    “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

    Clete


    P.S. There's about a 95% chance that MennSota won't even respond to this post at all! And if he does, his response will likely be nothing at all but him simply telling me that I don't understand Calvinism and then repeating himself.

    Why is it that Calvinist simply refuse to acknowledge their own plainly stated beliefs and to debate them?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  5. #64
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    12,793
    Thanks
    1,246
    Thanked 8,573 Times in 5,605 Posts

    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147821
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Jesus was made a human. Are humans perfect? Yes or no?
    They are when they exit the womb.

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Psalm 139 does not declare that humans are sinless.
    I said that they enter the world sinless.

    According to your ideas even though the Scriptures declare that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" you say that His brethren were made corrupt.

  6. #65
    Over 1500 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,640
    Thanks
    144
    Thanked 194 Times in 168 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    This argument assumes free will! IT FLAT OUT DOES ASSUME THAT MAN IS SOVERIEGN OVER HIS DEPRAVITY! Just as Spurgeon argued in the quotes I presented in the opening post. The only way that God's punishment of sin is if we could have done otherwise. That denies both exhaustive divine predestination and total depravity. Again, I give you the words of Calvin himself...

    “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

    “thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

    ”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)

    “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

    “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

    “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

    Clete


    P.S. There's about a 95% chance that MennSota won't even respond to this post at all! And if he does, his response will likely be nothing at all but him simply telling me that I don't understand Calvinism and then repeating himself.

    Why is it that Calvinist simply refuse to acknowledge their own plainly stated beliefs and to debate them?
    Your first statement is false. Thus your response is based on a false premise.

  7. #66
    Over 1500 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,640
    Thanks
    144
    Thanked 194 Times in 168 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    They are when they exit the womb.



    I said that they enter the world sinless.

    According to your ideas even though the Scriptures declare that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" you say that His brethren were made corrupt.
    You have nothing upon which to base your statement. I have scripture on which to base my statement.

  8. #67
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    9,172
    Thanks
    490
    Thanked 6,032 Times in 3,230 Posts

    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147762
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Your first statement is false. Thus your response is based on a false premise.
    As predicted. Good greif this is boring!

    Do you even acknowledge that John Calvin had his Calvinism right?

    Or do you agree with Spurgeon and reject the unconditional reprobabtion that Calvin believed and taught and wrote about?

    Do you know how to have a conversation with people?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    Grosnick Marowbe (September 30th, 2018)

  10. #68
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    12,793
    Thanks
    1,246
    Thanked 8,573 Times in 5,605 Posts

    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147821
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You have nothing upon which to base your statement.
    Of course you continue to deny what the following says is true:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

    Those who have been trained in the Reformed way of thinking have been taught that when the Scriptures refer to "all things" the words only means "some things." Just like they have been taught that that the words "every man" means only means "some men":

    "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).

  11. #69
    Over 1500 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,640
    Thanks
    144
    Thanked 194 Times in 168 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    As predicted. Good greif this is boring!

    Do you even acknowledge that John Calvin had his Calvinism right?

    Or do you agree with Spurgeon and reject the unconditional reprobabtion that Calvin believed and taught and wrote about?

    Do you know how to have a conversation with people?
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    As predicted. Good greif this is boring!

    Do you even acknowledge that John Calvin had his Calvinism right?

    Or do you agree with Spurgeon and reject the unconditional reprobabtion that Calvin believed and taught and wrote about?

    Do you know how to have a conversation with people?
    I don't even know what you mean by "John Calvin had his Calvinism right."
    Do you mean that Calvin observed God's means of salvation, as described in scripture, correctly?
    Do you wonder how Spurgeon could have a different observation?
    Both Calvin and Spurgeon recognized that God chose to ransom reprobate humans, not because reprobate humans merited the random, but solely because God chose to be gracious. Neither is in disagreement with one another on this issue.
    Your assertion is odd to me. It seems you are attempting to create a conflict where none exists.

  12. #70
    Over 1500 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,640
    Thanks
    144
    Thanked 194 Times in 168 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Of course you continue to deny what the following says is true:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

    Those who have been trained in the Reformed way of thinking have been taught that when the Scriptures refer to "all things" the words only means "some things." Just like they have been taught that that the words "every man" means only means "some men":

    "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).
    You refuse to answer.
    Are all humans sinful, therefore Jesus was sinful, or are all humans perfect, therefore Jesus is perfect?
    By your interpretation of Hebrews 2:7-9 you must choose one of the two options. Which option do you choose?

  13. #71
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    657
    Thanks
    84
    Thanked 37 Times in 29 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    17880
    Originally Posted by ttruscott
    IF there is no merit to our election, then there must be no merit to the non-election of others.



    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    False
    Our sin merits God act justly toward that sin.
    No merit for the election of some and no dis-merit for being not elected for others has NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD acting justly toward sin as both elect and non-elect are full of sin equally...especially since election and non-election supposedly happened before the sinfulness of anyone not yet created!
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  14. #72
    Over 1500 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,640
    Thanks
    144
    Thanked 194 Times in 168 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Originally Posted by ttruscott
    IF there is no merit to our election, then there must be no merit to the non-election of others.





    No merit for the election of some and no dis-merit for being not elected for others has NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD acting justly toward sin as both elect and non-elect are full of sin equally...especially since election and non-election supposedly happened before the sinfulness of anyone not yet created!
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Originally Posted by ttruscott
    IF there is no merit to our election, then there must be no merit to the non-election of others.





    No merit for the election of some and no dis-merit for being not elected for others has NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD acting justly toward sin as both elect and non-elect are full of sin equally...especially since election and non-election supposedly happened before the sinfulness of anyone not yet created!
    "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
    Do you agree?
    That is what we all merit. God justly condemns all to hell.
    Do you agree?
    God's atoning sacrifice on the cross ransomed whomever God elected to ransom.
    Do you agree?
    God's choice to ransom whomever He willed is not revealed to humans.
    Do you agree?
    Grace means "unmerited favor."
    Do you agree?
    Does God extend unmerited favor to all by saving all humanity?
    Yes or no.
    Does God extend unmerited favor to those whom He wills?
    Yes or no.
    THIS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH GOD.

  15. #73
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    657
    Thanks
    84
    Thanked 37 Times in 29 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    17880
    IF there is a reason for their not being elected that we don't know about, then there is merit for those elected for not being identified with the reason that caused the others to be not elected. Capish?



    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    No, this statement is gibberish.
    No, just confusing...

    If there is an unknown reason for their being not elected, then that reason must not be applicable to the elect right ? or they would be non-elect also under, for, that reason. Therefore not being under that reason is their condition, merit, and their election is not unconditional.

    Any better?

    UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION THEN MEANS ALSO UNCONDITIONAL NON-ELECTION AND IF UNCONDITIONAL MEANS NO REASON FOR ONE, THERE IS ALSO NO REASON FOR THE OTHER...SINCE AN UNKNOWN REASON IS STILL A CONDITION.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  16. #74
    Over 1500 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,640
    Thanks
    144
    Thanked 194 Times in 168 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    IF there is a reason for their not being elected that we don't know about, then there is merit for those elected for not being identified with the reason that caused the others to be not elected. Capish?




    No, just confusing...

    If there is an unknown reason for their being not elected, then that reason must not be applicable to the elect right ? or they would be non-elect also under, for, that reason. Therefore not being under that reason is their condition, merit, and their election is not unconditional.

    Any better?

    UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION THEN MEANS ALSO UNCONDITIONAL NON-ELECTION AND IF UNCONDITIONAL MEANS NO REASON FOR ONE, THERE IS ALSO NO REASON FOR THE OTHER...SINCE AN UNKNOWN REASON IS STILL A CONDITION.
    The reason God does not save everyone is because He is not obligated to do so.
    What God is obligated to do, by His law and by His nature, is to act justly.
    Is it just to punish lawbreakers?
    Yes or no.
    God had the punishment of some lawbreakers fall upon Jesus. Was God unfair to bring His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity, but not all humanity?
    Yes or no?

  17. #75
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    12,793
    Thanks
    1,246
    Thanked 8,573 Times in 5,605 Posts

    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147821
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You refuse to answer.
    I answered and my answer concerns the way all people enter the world. Not about what happens afterwards.

    And since the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren in "all things" we can know that all people enter the world perfect.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us