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Thread: Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

  1. #46
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    He had (3784) (opheilo from ophelos = profit, an increase) means to owe, and conveys the basic meaning of owing a debt and then of having a strong obligation which can be a moral obligation and personal duty. In this verse opheiloindicates a necessity, owing to the nature of the matter under consideration. In other words, Jesus was obligated (as it were) to do this in order that He might become our High Priest!
    Yes, that is the definition of the Greek word and that word is translated the following way in "bold":

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17; KJV).

    But what I wanted you to answer is the meaning of the words "in all things." That Greek word means "each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything." That explains why all of the following translations convey the practically the same idea:

    "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren"
    (NKJV).

    "Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us"
    (NLT).

    "For this reason he had to be made like them,fully human in every way" (NIV).

    "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect" (ESV).

    "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things"
    (NASB).

    "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect" (NET).

    There are many more translations of the same verse which say practicallt the same thing as those above. Do you have a translation which you think is more accurate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    God never shows His favor on people that do not merit it first.
    Do you consider it to be "merited" by our having faith in His blood?

    Romans 3:24-25
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, that is the definition of the Greek word and that word is translated the following way in "bold":

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17; KJV).

    But what I wanted you to answer is the meaning of the words "in all things." That Greek word means "each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything." That explains why all of the following translations convey the practically the same idea:

    "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren"
    (NKJV).

    "Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us"
    (NLT).

    "For this reason he had to be made like them,fully human in every way" (NIV).

    "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect" (ESV).

    "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things"
    (NASB).

    "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect" (NET).

    There are many more translations of the same verse which say practicallt the same thing as those above. Do you have a translation which you think is more accurate?
    I did. Read my previous post again.

  5. #49
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    God never shows His favor on people that do not merit it first.
    Merit: verb
    To be worthy of; deserve



    While I certainly do reject the loaded meaning of the Calvinist "Unmerited Favor" doctrine, I don't think I can agree with your comments either. At least not as stated.

    The idea that I've done something that merits God the Son offering His life in exchange for mine is just not something that can sit for one second inside my brain. I mean what in the world could I possibly have to offer that wouldn't insult the value of His life? If I gave my life 100 times over it would far less than if I had broken a chip of brick off the side of my house and offered it in exchange for the The Ophir Mystique!

    Which is a semtiment that I cannot help but think that you surely agree with. Could you clarify just what you mean?

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  7. #50
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I did. Read my previous post again.
    I asked you for a translation of the verse which you think is an improvment over the ones which I gave:

    "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren"
    (NKJV).

    "Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us"
    (NLT).

    "For this reason he had to be made like them,fully human in every way"
    (NIV).

    "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect" (ESV).

    "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things" (NASB).

    "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect"
    (NET).

    All of these translations support my view. But in order to support your view you need a translation which reads that He was made like us in only some ways but not in all ways.

  8. #51
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If the verse which precedes the one you quoted is examined we can see that those who are spoken of as being "predestined" are actually the saved, so the "predestination" is not unto salvation.

    "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"
    (Ro.8:28-29).
    The fulfillment of our predestination is our salvation, the fulfillment of the promise of election. To separate predestination from the fulfillment of election as salvation unto the Heavenly Marriage would seem to leave predestination empty of content.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Here is another translation which makes the meaning even more clear:

    "And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29; NET).

    At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved (those who love God, those he describes as the called)--"because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
    You quote my argument back at me to correct me? Weird...all I did different was to set the stage that foreknowledge also included the thought of fore-loved and from that pov I asked, "Why before our existence did HE love some and therefore peredestine them to heaven and not others ??? HIM being the GOD who is LOVE and who loves us all etc etc and is not a respecter of persons...

    There were a lot of verses with controversial points of view, I shall wait to see what transpires with them...
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I do not read copy/pasted posts.

    If you can't make the argument yourself then don't waste all of our time with whatever you Googled.
    This is my argument in full, written any number of times where I suspect someone might be interested. I sincerely don't think you could ever find it on google but go for it and if you do find it, it will be under my name. I copy myself as I don't always have time to rework the whole thing over and over and over, but I have never copied anything in this argument from anything I found on google.

    If you don't like that, pass on by...and be well.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The U in TULIP may also be expressed as "unmerited favor," which may be a better means of explaining unconditional election.
    Yes, I see, but then we still have the problem that those whom HE passed over for election had no dis-merit from themselves to cause HIM to pass over them... Unmerited favour cannot imply that there is a reason for HIM passing over some for election as then the ones he did NOT pass over must have had the merit of not having, not being under, the reason HE passed over the others.

    Unmerited heaven must mean unmerited hell, a very hard position to hold...
    Election to heaven for no reason must mean non-election to heaven for no reason, another very hard position to hold...
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I asked you for a translation of the verse which you think is an improvment over the ones which I gave:

    "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren"
    (NKJV).

    "Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us"
    (NLT).

    "For this reason he had to be made like them,fully human in every way"
    (NIV).

    "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect" (ESV).

    "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things" (NASB).

    "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect"
    (NET).

    All of these translations support my view. But in order to support your view you need a translation which reads that He was made like us in only some ways but not in all ways.
    They do not say anything about the human condition at birth. If your interpretation is correct, you have these two options:
    1) Humans are sinners, therefore Jesus was a sinner.
    2) Humans are perfect, therefore Jesus is perfect.
    Which of those two options do you pick?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Yes, I see, but then we still have the problem that those whom HE passed over for election had no dis-merit from themselves to cause HIM to pass over them... Unmerited favour cannot imply that there is a reason for HIM passing over some for election as then the ones he did NOT pass over must have had the merit of not having, not being under, the reason HE passed over the others.

    Unmerited heaven must mean unmerited hell, a very hard position to hold...
    Election to heaven for no reason must mean non-election to heaven for no reason, another very hard position to hold...
    We all have sin. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
    We all have "dis-merit" so that God must judge justly against ALL humanity.
    Do you imagine the elect are not judged justly?
    All of God's wrath against sin fell upon Jesus on the cross...because of the elects sin. This is an incredible act of grace in ransoming the elect.
    Is it unfair that God would choose to ransom some, but not all? Can you or I accuse God of being unfair when we did not deserve God's gracious action in ransoming us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    They do not say anything about the human condition at birth.
    It's talking about how the Lord was made--just like His brethren. There is absolutely nothing which indicates that the Lord Jesus' makeup was any different from any of His brethren at birth. He was made like them in all things and since He was made like them in that way He was like them at birth.

    Besides that, Adam was created in the image of God and according to Him everything He made was "very good" (Gen.1:31). Since all people are created in the image or similitude of God all people emerge from the womb "very good."

    That matches perfectly with the way that David said he was made:

    "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).

    All of this evidence fits together and demonstrates beyond any doubt that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren in all things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It's talking about how the Lord was made--just like His brethren. There is absolutely nothing which indicates that the Lord Jesus' makeup was any different from any of His brethren at birth. He was made like them in all things and since He was made like them in that way He was like them at birth.

    Besides that, Adam was created in the image of God and according to Him everything He made was "very good" (Gen.1:31). Since all people are created in the image or similitude of God all people emerge from the womb "very good."

    That matches perfectly with the way that David said he was made:

    "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).

    All of this evidence fits together and demonstrates beyond any doubt that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren in all things.
    Jesus was made a human. Are humans perfect? Yes or no?
    You quote Psalm 139, yet ignore Psalm 51.
    Psalm 139 does not declare that humans are sinless. You are projecting the thought onto the passage. Psalm 51 says David was a sinner at conception.
    Reconcile that problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    We all have sin. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
    Amen!

    We all have "dis-merit" so that God must judge justly against ALL humanity.
    Indeed we do as sinful humans but what of when we were elected before the foundation of the world??

    Do you imagine the elect are not judged justly?
    I contend that the sinful elect are perfectly and justly punished for their sins...

    All of God's wrath against sin fell upon Jesus on the cross...because of the elects sin.
    All? is there then no wrath for the Satanic?

    This is an incredible act of grace in ransoming the elect.
    Ah, now I can agree - all the wrath for HIS Sinful elect fell on our Christ to ransome us, perhaps, if Jn 3:18 is accepted in a certain way, (John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned,) sinful believers are never condemned for their sins...though our debt must be paid.

    Is it unfair that God would choose to ransom some, but not all?
    Surely fairness is found in treating everyone, well, fairly... IF HE has a reason for electing some and does not apply that blessing to others for no reason, is that fair? Yet iff some measure up to HIS reason for election but others do not, how is that not fair?

    Can you or I accuse God of being unfair when we did not deserve God's gracious action in ransoming us?
    I am not arguing against GOD when I argue against a theology that mifiestly claims GOD is unfair!!! I mention that unfairness not because I believe GOD to be unfair but to show there is a theology that it claims GOD is unfair but pretends they do not.

    IF there is no merit to our election, then there must be no merit to the non-election of others. IF there is a reason for their not being elected that we don't know about, then there is merit for those elected for not being identified with the reason that caused the others to be not elected. Capish? Unconditional election doesn't mean that we don't know the reason for our election ! it claims there is no condition for our election, no merit at at all! Replay this doctrine about the non-elect and how they are treated without condition or merit to end in hell and it all goes to hell in a handbasket!

    Unconditional election or election without merit means we have some going to hell for no reason and no dis-merit of their own. Do we really believe that God is this arbitrary? Well, yes I did for a while because I could think of any other way to proceed but, as many of you know by now, I was then taught about our Pre-Conception Existence and how it answers this blasphemy so we need not base our Church upon it anymore.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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