User Tag List

Page 2 of 18 FirstFirst 1234512 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 257

Thread: Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

  1. #16
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
    Posts
    9,247
    Thanks
    1,333
    Thanked 1,506 Times in 1,091 Posts

    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    501710
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Both your points are irrelevant to the topic.
    Both of my points are completely on topic.

    God chose the children of Israel to be a light to the Gentiles, so people could see what it means to be righteous according to God's righteous standards, and choose to follow those standards.
    That is the opposite of the false doctrine of Total Depravity.

    God told us the standards that He is using to determine who He will give grace to and who He will reject.
    This is the opposite of the false doctrine of Unconditional Election.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to genuineoriginal For Your Post:

    Clete (September 28th, 2018)

  3. #17
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    8,921
    Thanks
    417
    Thanked 5,300 Times in 2,982 Posts

    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147758
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You're wrong, Clete.
    Saying it doesn't make it so. This is a debate forum. Maybe Google the word 'debate' and try again.

    You don't understand Reformed theology, but you certainly parrot false concepts of Reformed theology.[/quote]

    I've debated Calvinism for decades and I've quoted nothing other than extraordinarily famous Calvinists and Calvinism's own source documents .

    At the core of our difference is the fact that you harbor in your heart the belief that you are a good person. You imagine that God looks upon you and finds good in your nature.
    Reading minds now are we?

    I harbor no such imaginations. I know the Bible tells us our sins are as red as scarlet and only Jesus makes us white as snow. I know that as I type, I do so with a corrupted nature that needed to be ransomed from the junk heap. I understand that I am as corrupt as the next person in that junk heap and I have no idea why God would choose to ransom me and not everyone. That reason is harbored by God and God only knows the answer. All I know is that God has provided amazing grace to this corrupted person. I don't know why.
    Actually this is NOT Calvinist doctrine. Calvinism teaches explicitly that there is no reason at all. It is the 'U' in the TULIP doctrines...

    “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

    And, in fact, there is a reason they teach that. It follows necessarily from the rest of their doctrine.

    “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

    “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

    I'll give you a hint here, Spurgeon, one of the most famous and revered Calvinists to have ever lived, rejected what he called "unconditional reprobation". He specifically believe and preached that, "If he be lost, damnation is all of man; but, if he be saved, still salvation is all of God."

    The problem is that you don't get to have your cake and eat it too! Although, you can't really blame him for this inconsistency. The system is so wildly unjust that people are driven intuitively away from being logically consistent with it, just as you are in thinking that there is a reason why God chose you and not Madaline O'Hare.

    If this bothers you, take it up with the King and see what he has written. This conflict is not between you and me. This conflict is between you and God.
    I'm here for the express purpose of debating this issue. That's the only reason I'm talking with you at all. If I'm wrong, you should be able to show me. I dare you to try.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  4. #18
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    8,921
    Thanks
    417
    Thanked 5,300 Times in 2,982 Posts

    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147758
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Both your points are irrelevant to the topic.
    Listen bub! You aren't even discussing the topic! That topic being Spurgeon's doctrine on unconditional election being in contradiction with Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity, which you wouldn't have even been able to articulate had I not just done it for you.


    He directly responded to what you said! And made a damn good point, I might add. The fact is that you DO NOT KNOW that God has chosen you nor can you know at all this side of your physical death. But you'd have to actually use you head for something besides a hat rack to think it through and realize that.

    Now, either respond to his point or get off my thread.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    Grosnick Marowbe (September 28th, 2018)

  6. #19
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    8,921
    Thanks
    417
    Thanked 5,300 Times in 2,982 Posts

    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147758
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I don't have a problem at all with God choosing the children of Israel to be a light to the Gentiles.
    Do you?
    I ignored his comment on this because it made no sense and was so wildly off topic that I didn't care to figure it out. What in the world is he even getting at? Why would anyone have a problem with God working through a particular nation to accomplish His plan? It makes no sense to me at all.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    Tambora (October 7th, 2018)

  8. #20
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,375
    Thanks
    118
    Thanked 159 Times in 135 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Listen bub! You aren't even discussing the topic! That topic being Spurgeon's doctrine on unconditional election being in contradiction with Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity, which you wouldn't have even been able to articulate had I not just done it for you.


    He directly responded to what you said! And made a damn good point, I might add. The fact is that you DO NOT KNOW that God has chosen you nor can you know at all this side of your physical death. But you'd have to actually use you head for something besides a hat rack to think it through and realize that.

    Now, either respond to his point or get off my thread.
    Such a loving response Clete. Thank you for your Christ-like response. To your assertion:
    Spurgeon was a Particular Baptist. He would, therefore, have similarities to Calvin, yet also differences. What this means is that, contrary to haters of Calvin, there are many flavors to Reformed theology so that you cannot make a blanket statement that covers all issues.
    Second, the TULIP acronym is not an official deliniation of what Calvin, or Spurgeon believed. It is a summary of a Dutch Reformed group that responded to the five points if the Remonstrants, a group of people who followed Jacob Arminius.
    The U in TULIP may also be expressed as "unmerited favor," which may be a better means of explaining unconditional election. Unconditional election simply means that no one merits God's choice. God chooses, based upon His own will, which He does not reveal to humanity. It's similar to how your parents made choices, when you were a toddler, and they never told you why they chose as they did. You just lived with their choice.
    Unconditional election is not in contradiction with Reformed theology as you assert. The contradiction is merely due to your own prejudice, which oozes from your words. Any rational person recognizes this.
    As to the other person you are referring to, he's on my ignore list due to his bitter spirit.
    I find a lot of non-Christian behavior here at TOL. In fact, I suspect there are very few adopted believers actually posting. Instead I see many bitter souls who cannot stand the fact that God is fully Sovereign over every aspect of His Creation, both past, present and future. It makes people angry and spiteful to accept that they do not control every aspect of their lives.

  9. #21
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    12,784
    Thanks
    1,246
    Thanked 8,555 Times in 5,594 Posts

    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147819
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Interesting. I assume you view Jesus as perfect God and perfect man. Is this assumption accurate?
    If so, and according to your interpretation of the verses you provided, Jesus is made exactly like other humans, this would mean that all humans are perfect.
    All people emerge from the womb perfect because they are made in the image of God.

  10. #22
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,375
    Thanks
    118
    Thanked 159 Times in 135 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    All people emerge from the womb perfect because they are made in the image of God.
    I have provided scripture that declares your statement to be false.
    Adam and Eve were made in the image of God. When sin entered their lives a corruption was introduced which is passed on to all humanity so that we are born in corruption.

  11. #23
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    12,784
    Thanks
    1,246
    Thanked 8,555 Times in 5,594 Posts

    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147819
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Unconditional election simply means that no one merits God's choice.
    Here is how the Lord chooses who will be saved:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

  12. #24
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    12,784
    Thanks
    1,246
    Thanked 8,555 Times in 5,594 Posts

    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147819
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I have provided scripture that declares your statement to be false.
    No you didn't!

    All you did was to quote verses which you don't understand in a failed attempt to prove that what is written here is not true:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Adam and Eve were made in the image of God.
    Here we can see that all people are made in the image of God:

    "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man" (Gen.9:6).

    The reason why all murderers are to be put to death is because those murdered are created in the image of God. What is said here would not make any sense if just Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. We also read the following which is in regard to the same truth:

    "Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God" (Jas.3:9).

    The Greek word translated "curse we" is in the "present" tense so the words about being made after the similitude of God are describing all people and not just Adam and Eve.

  13. #25
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,375
    Thanks
    118
    Thanked 159 Times in 135 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Here is how the Lord chooses who will be saved:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
    How did God make His decision? Your verse does not say.
    What your verse says is that God chose you to be saved. Salvation is then tied to the Holy Spirit separating you and giving you faith to believe.
    You must ask the question: How can a person, who is dead in their trespasses and sins, "believe the truth"? What must happen to a dead person before they can believe?
    Thankfully Ephesians 2:1-10 provides the answer.
    2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
    A person must be chosen, by God, and made alive in Christ so that God might give them faith to believe and be sanctified.
    Using one verse to try create a doctrine around it is very dangerous. That is how many cults are formed. The entirety of scripture must inform our understanding of God's work in redemption.

  14. #26
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,375
    Thanks
    118
    Thanked 159 Times in 135 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No you didn't!

    All you did was to quote verses which you don't understand in a failed attempt to prove that what is written here is not true:

    "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).



    Here we can see that all people are made in the image of God:

    "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man" (Gen.9:6).

    The reason why all murderers are to be put to death is because those murdered are created in the image of God. What is said here would not make any sense if just Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. We also read the following which is in regard to the same truth:

    "Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God" (Jas.3:9).

    The Greek word translated "curse we" is in the "present" tense so the words about being made after the similitude of God are describing all people and not just Adam and Eve.
    You haven't addressed the issue.
    Either
    1) all humans are perfect and thus Jesus is made perfect like all other humans
    or...
    2) all humans are sinners and thus Jesus is made sinful like all other humans.
    Which one is it?
    These are the only two conclusions we can have, based upon your interpretation of Hebrews 2:7.
    Second, if we continue with your assertion regarding being made in the exact image of God, this would mean humans are all powerful, immortal beings who are sovereign over all. We are thus equals with God in all aspects because we are in God's image.
    Now, I suspect you will rightfully balk at that concept and set parameters around what it means to be made in the image of God. Therein lies our difference. What nuance do you apply to being made in the image of God so that you can account for human sinfulness?

  15. #27
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    12,784
    Thanks
    1,246
    Thanked 8,555 Times in 5,594 Posts

    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147819
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You haven't addressed the issue.
    Either
    1) all humans are perfect and thus Jesus is made perfect like all other humans
    or...
    2) all humans are sinners and thus Jesus is made sinful like all other humans.
    Which one is it?
    All humans emerge perfect from the womb and the Lord Jesus likewise emerged from the womb perfect.

    Then when people sin they are no longer perfect but since the Lord never sinned He remains perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Therein lies our difference. What nuance do you apply to being made in the image of God so that you can account for human sinfulness?
    Both Adam and Eve were made in the image of God and they both sinned. They sinned because they had a free will and we all sin because we have a free will.

  16. #28
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    12,784
    Thanks
    1,246
    Thanked 8,555 Times in 5,594 Posts

    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147819
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    How did God make His decision? Your verse does not say.
    He chooses those who believe:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

  17. #29
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,375
    Thanks
    118
    Thanked 159 Times in 135 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    All humans emerge perfect from the womb and the Lord Jesus likewise emerged from the womb perfect.

    Then when people sin they are no longer perfect but since the Lord never sinned He remains perfect.



    Both Adam and Eve were made in the image of God and they both sinned. They sinned because they had a free will and we all sin because we have a free will.
    Your first assertion is not substantiated by scripture.
    Your second assertion is your dogma about free will, but is also not substantiated by scripture.

  18. #30
    Over 1000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,375
    Thanks
    118
    Thanked 159 Times in 135 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    He chooses those who believe:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
    No
    God chose sinners. God made those who were dead in their trespasses and sins, alive in Christ so that they would have the faith to believe. This is shown very clearly in Ephesians and Colossians. Will you ignore other scripture in order to cling to your own position?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us