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Thread: Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

  1. #241
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    I have found that one can know a fellow member of the Body of Christ by what they post. If they post, 'Grace by faith' in accordance with this 'Dispensation of Grace' you can pretty well ascertain they are a 'TRUE' child of God. They MUST know how to 'Rightly Divide' the written word of God, and be indwelt, sealed and baptized into the 'Body of Christ' by the Holy Spirit.
    Well, I don't think you have to be a dispenstaionalist to be a Christian but you do have to base pretty much the whole thing on the shed blood of Christ. I mean, that is sort of a bare minimum, I'd say.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  3. #242
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    It's simply that I don't waste my time discussing Christian doctrine with people I don't consider Christians. That makes sense, right?
    Your refusal to accept Bible believing followers of Jesus as Christians does not make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    it's simply that there is insufficient common ground on which to proceed
    Have you taken any time to consider why there is no common ground between the beliefs of the first century Christians and modern day Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I'd be wasting my time trying to discuss dispensationalism
    Considering that my walk with Jesus began with Dispensationalism until I found a better way, I don't consider it a waste of my time to try to help anyone to see the problems with that modern twisting of scripture.
    Learn to read what is written.

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  4. #243
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Practically everything was in common except that the Twelve now understood that the Messiah and the Lamb of God were one and the same person. Otherwise, the message was the same, repent so that God will send Jesus back and give Israel her kingdom (i.e. times of refreshing) - Acts 3.
    No, here is what John was preaching about the Lord Jesus' appearance:

    "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is"
    (1 Jn.3:2).

    Those who received John's epistles were taught that they might well be alive when the Lord appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."

    They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."

    This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus. The events of which are spoken of at 1 John 3:2 by John can only be in regard to the rapture spoken of here by Paul:

    "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"
    (1 Cor.15:51-52).

    This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus.

    According to Paul Sadler, the past President of the Berean Bible Society, only the members of the Body of Christ will be raptured:

    "The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    One thing's they for sure! They were NOT preaching...

    Romans 4: 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works
    David lived under the law and he was saved by grace through faith, just like all of the others who were saved while living under the law:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
    (Ro.4:16).
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; October 10th, 2018 at 10:14 PM.

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  6. #244
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Just whom do you think you are speaking to on TOL?
    I obviously was not speaking to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You know no "the Greek," cannot read it, cannot speak it, cannot understand it, cannot write it
    Please learn to write in English instead of gibberish.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  7. #245
    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You didn't see inside Paul's heart the way God did.
    Neither did you. So stop trying to move the goalposts, and listen to what scripture says.

    Please post the commandments from the Law that you think Paul was following.
    How about "do not worship idols"?

    Paul thought that Jesus was not the Messiah.

    The Jews that came to believe were believing in Jesus, and therefore Paul justified his actions by taking the position that they were committing idol worship. Which, under the Mosaic law, was punishable by death.

    Paul (Saul, at the time) was zealous for the law.

    “If you hear someone in one of your cities, which the Lord your God gives you to dwell in, saying,‘Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods”’—which you have not known—then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination was committed among you,you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock—with the edge of the sword.And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again.So none of the accursed things shall remain in your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of His anger and show you mercy, have compassion on you and multiply you, just as He swore to your fathers,because you have listened to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you today, to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord your God. - Deuteronomy 13:12-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

    Appeal to incredulity is a fallacy. Would you like to try to refute what I claimed and provided evidence for?

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  9. #246
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I obviously was not speaking to you.

    Please learn to write in English instead of gibberish.
    More stock, droid sound bytes, cliches. You're a poser, fraud-even you know it, alleged "the Greek" con artist.
    Saint John W

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  11. #247
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Paul thought that Jesus was not the Messiah.

    Paul (Saul, at the time) was zealous for the law.
    Do you know why Paul/Saul was zealous for the law?
    It is important, because it is the reason Paul/Saul was found worthy of being spoken to by Jesus on the road to Damascus.

    Romans 8:28
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  12. #248
    TOL Legend glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Do you know why Paul/Saul was zealous for the law?
    It is important, because it is the reason Paul/Saul was found worthy of being spoken to by Jesus on the road to Damascus.

    Romans 8:28
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    Really? Paul was like the Jews who put Jesus on the Cross.

    He would have been amongst those here.

    Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

    Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

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  14. #249
    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Do you know why Paul/Saul was zealous for the law?
    Because he was a Jew... I mean, seriously, what kind of a question is that?

    It is important,
    Um... No one said it wasn't...

    because it is the reason Paul/Saul was found worthy of being spoken to by Jesus on the road to Damascus.
    Saul was worthy of death, nothing more.

    God chose to use Saul for no other reason than to use him to teach grace to Gentiles because Israel, as a whole, had rejected Him.

    Romans 8:28
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    Cherry picking verses isn't a good idea.

    This verse is talking about the organism called the Body of Christ. Before Paul was saved, there WAS NO BODY OF CHRIST.

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  16. #250
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Really? Paul was like the Jews who put Jesus on the Cross.

    He would have been amongst those here.

    Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

    Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
    Paul would also have been among these:

    John 3:1-2
    1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.



    Acts 5:34-35,38-39
    34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
    35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
    38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
    39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.



    Here is what Paul says about the reasons for his actions in his own words:

    Acts 22:3-4
    3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
    4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.



    Paul did not persecute the Christians because he was zealous towards the law, Paul persecuted the Christians because he was zealous towards God.

    Paul was chosen because he was zealous towards God.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  17. #251
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Cherry picking verses isn't a good idea.
    If you believed that, you would stop doing it.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  18. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post

    Paul did not persecute the Christians because he was zealous towards the law, Paul persecuted the Christians because he was zealous towards God.

    Paul was chosen because he was zealous towards God.
    Zeal?
    The scribes and pharisees had zeal for God, as well.
    They had so much zeal for God that they crucified their own Messiah when He came.

    Romans 10:1-3
    1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

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  20. #253
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Your refusal to accept Bible believing followers of Jesus as Christians does not make sense.
    It is this silly comment of yours that makes no sense.

    Have you taken any time to consider why there is no common ground between the beliefs of the first century Christians and modern day Christians?
    Whether I have or not has nothing to do with what I'm interested in discussing with you on this thread.

    Considering that my walk with Jesus began with Dispensationalism until I found a better way, I don't consider it a waste of my time to try to help anyone to see the problems with that modern twisting of scripture.
    I didn't say it was.

    I said that it is a waste of my time to discuss dispensational theology with you. I'm not at all concerned about your time. It is my time that I put a premium on, not yours. You do whatever you think is right. If you want to discuss "a better way" with dispensationalists, have at it.

    Personally, I'm not interested.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  22. #254
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Practically everything was in common except that the Twelve now understood that the Messiah and the Lamb of God were one and the same person. Otherwise, the message was the same, repent so that God will send Jesus back and give Israel her kingdom (i.e. times of refreshing) - Acts 3.
    No, here is what John was preaching about the Lord Jesus' appearance:

    "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is"
    (1 Jn.3:2).

    Those who received John's epistles were taught that they might well be alive when the Lord appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."

    They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."

    This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus. The events of which are spoken of at 1 John 3:2 by John can only be in regard to the rapture spoken of here by Paul:

    "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"
    (1 Cor.15:51-52).

    This will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the living saints will put on glorious bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus.

    According to Paul Sadler, the past President of the Berean Bible Society, only the members of the Body of Christ will be raptured:

    "The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    One thing's they for sure! They were NOT preaching...

    Romans 4: 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works
    David lived under the law and he was saved by grace through faith, just like all of the others who were saved while living under the law:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
    (Ro.4:16).

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  24. #255
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Our salvation is not a gift God gives to us for our sake.
    Our salvation is a gift God gives to Himself.
    I would suggest rather that the gift of our salvation is that we have done nothing to earn it in our sinful human lives even though HE gives it to us to fulfill HIS promise to us of election to heaven to be HIS bride BY the salvation found in HIS Son if we should ever need it.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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