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Thread: Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

    I've recently noticed a contradiction, or perhaps I should say another contradiction inherent within the Calvinist system but I've not found a good opportunity to mention it in other discussions and so I thought I'd give it it's own thread.

    It has to do with the two Calvinist concepts that are clearly in conflict with each other but it is one of those issues that is rarely detected by any Calvinist because the two contradictory issues are almost never brought up in the same conversation. The two concepts are compartmentalized and sequestered away from each other for reasons that I don't really understand except that to do otherwise would seem to put the whole system in jeopardy. I've looked and looked and looked for a published Calvinist response to the issue and have been totally unsuccessful in finding anything. If any of you know of something or can find anything on this, please post it!

    So, let's get to it...

    In a sentence, If God is just then the concepts of unconditional election and predestination cannot both be true, even by Calvinist's own understanding of these terms.

    Let's first look at unconditional election and get a firm grip on what the Calvinist means by that term. Unconditional Election, the 'U' in the TULIP doctrines is related too, if not predicated on, "Total Depravity", the 'T' in the TULIP doctrines. It goes something like this...

    We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p.139).

    I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will. - C.H. Spurgeon

    ... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright. It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is 'Alpha and Omega' in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).


    Now, it is important to understand that, according to Calvinism, election is truly unconditional; that God does not save someone for any reason at all other than that it pleases Him to do so.

    “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

    “… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

    “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

    “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)


    So, we have then a concept of Grace that was not caused by anything other than God's own will nor was it precipitated by anything outside of God Himself. The obvious and intuitive response to this is that it is fundamentally unjust, right? In fact, that objection has been responded to by the Calvinists many times. Charles Spurgeon's argument is echoed by nearly every Calvinist. It goes like this...

    This election of God is sovereign. He chooseth as he will. Who shall call him to account? "Can I not do as I will with my own?" is his answer to every caviller. "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" is the solemn utterance that silences every one who would impugn the justice of the Most High. He has a right, seeing we are all criminals, to punish whom he will. As king of the universe he doubtless acts with discretion, but still according to his sovereignty. Wisely not wantonly he rules, but ever according to the counsel of his own will. Election, then, is sovereign.

    I come to the hardest part of my task this morning, Election in its justice. Now, I shall defend this great fact, that God has chosen men to himself, and I shall regard it from rather a different point of view from that which is usually taken. My defence is just this. You tell me, if God has chosen some men to eternal life, that he has been unjust. I ask you to prove it. The burden of the proof lies with you. For I would have you remember that none merited this at all. Is there one man in the whole world who would have the impertinence to say that he merits anything of his Maker? If so, be it known unto you that he shall have all he merits; and his reward will be the flames of hell for ever, for that is the utmost that any man ever merited of God. God is in debt to no man, and at the last great day every man shall have as much love as much pity, and as much goodness, as he deserves. (Sermon on Election 6:244)

    Now, so far as that goes, Spurgeon's argument here makes sense, right?! If people were all genuinely evil and God simply decided to save some while preserving the balance of the scales of justice with His own blood, that would work. But there's a problem that Calvinist just seem to be completely blind too. That problem being their own doctrine of predestination! It isn't just that some people are predestined to be saved, according the Calvinist, it's genuinely universal and exhaustive predestination. Every single event, whether past, present or future, including every act of man whether good or evil was predestined by God before anyone other than God Himself existed and He did so FOR NO REASON other than that it pleased Him to do so. In other words, according to Calvinism, people do evil things because God predestined that they do so.

    Here it is in the Calvin's own words...

    “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

    “thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

    ”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)

    “We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

    ...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)[/indent]

    So we have on the one hand, saving faith is NOT of free will but only by God's will and on the other hand we have that evil is also not of free will but is just as predestined as is the salvation of the saints. This is according to the actual founding documents of Calvinism themselves. There can be no disputing that this is, in fact, Calvinist doctrine! This is precisely what is meant when the Calvinist states that God is Soveriegn.


    So, where is the contradiction?

    If you're not a Calvinist, you already see it. If you are a Calvinist, you don't see it and it is very likely that you still won't see it after I spell it out for you.

    Look again at Spurgeon's rebuttal against those who would "impune the justice of the Most High"...

    This election of God is sovereign. He chooseth as he will. Who shall call him to account? "Can I not do as I will with my own?" is his answer to every caviller. "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" is the solemn utterance that silences every one who would impugn the justice of the Most High. He has a right, seeing we are all criminals, to punish whom he will. As king of the universe he doubtless acts with discretion, but still according to his sovereignty. Wisely not wantonly he rules, but ever according to the counsel of his own will. Election, then, is sovereign.

    I come to the hardest part of my task this morning, Election in its justice. Now, I shall defend this great fact, that God has chosen men to himself, and I shall regard it from rather a different point of view from that which is usually taken. My defence is just this. You tell me, if God has chosen some men to eternal life, that he has been unjust. I ask you to prove it. The burden of the proof lies with you. For I would have you remember that none merited this at all. Is there one man in the whole world who would have the impertinence to say that he merits anything of his Maker? If so, be it known unto you that he shall have all he merits; and his reward will be the flames of hell for ever, for that is the utmost that any man ever merited of God. God is in debt to no man, and at the last great day every man shall have as much love as much pity, and as much goodness, as he deserves. (Sermon on Election 6:244)

    This argument implies that the mechanism governing people's evil actions is different than the mechanism governing his repentance! It implies that the doctrine of Unconditional Election is the result of God's will but that the doctrine of Total Depravity is a result of the will of man! It implies that God is the Alpha and Omega of salvation but that man is soverign over his own condemnation. God is soveriegn over some things but not all things! The Calvinist would choke to death on those words! He would never premit himself to utter such a thing and yet that is precisely what they argue in order to maintain the idea that an arbitrary God is just. The argument doesn't work precisely because, according to their own doctrine, the fact that "we are all criminals" is no more the result of our will than is the unconditional election that they are attempting to defend.

    So once again, one of the most basic concepts of Christianity, in this case 'justice', hoists the Calvinist by his own pitard.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    No contradiction.
    God knew that Adam would sin before Creation. God chose to create man and chose to allow man to disobey and bring the curse upon all mankind from generation to generation.
    God knew He would enter into Earth and pay the ransom for those whom He chose to ransom.
    In no instance was God obligated to act differently than He has chosen to act.
    The burden is upon you to show that God has been unjust.

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    I've always declared that Calvinism CHANGES the 'character of the God of the Bible.' The Calvinist view of God sees Him as a God that is using His creations as actors in a stage play. He chooses some to be the villain and others to be the Good guys (Heroes) of the play. Shakespear wrote: "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players;" This phrase fits Calvinism to a tee. According to them, it is God who planned everything before the foundation of the world. He created both, the good and the evil. Each following a script written by the Creator of all. Humanity is merely pawns on a gigantic chessboard. Both the good and the evil have no free-will to be anything less than what they were created for.

    According to the Calvinist belief-system God chose certain people (players) to be the 'Elect' and others to be the 'villains.' (non-Elect) The Elect (good guys) inherit eternal life, while the others (villains) are damned to eternal torment. Each must play their part according to the script. Everything must be played out according to the script that was created before the foundation of the world. God is the director of this play according to Calvinistic belief. No one has a free-will to choose, instead, they must play their part according to the script, without deviation. There's no room (or possibility) for improvisation in this play.

    So, if you happen to have been chosen to be the lead (Elect) in this play, you'll have the benefit of spending eternity in Heaven, on the other hand if you've been chosen to play the villain/heavy (non-elect) you'll wind up being cast into the Lake of Fire. This is what it all boils down to. In this particular play you don't have to have any talent to play either part,you're just chosen at random.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    No contradiction.
    God knew that Adam would sin before Creation. God chose to create man and chose to allow man to disobey and bring the curse upon all mankind from generation to generation.
    God knew He would enter into Earth and pay the ransom for those whom He chose to ransom.
    In no instance was God obligated to act differently than He has chosen to act.
    The burden is upon you to show that God has been unjust.
    Are you trying to say that God, allowed man one opportunity to use his free-will to disobey? (sin)

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Look again at Spurgeon's rebuttal against those who would "impune the justice of the Most High"...

    This election of God is sovereign. He chooseth as he will. Who shall call him to account? "Can I not do as I will with my own?" is his answer to every caviller. "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" is the solemn utterance that silences every one who would impugn the justice of the Most High. He has a right, seeing we are all criminals, to punish whom he will. As king of the universe he doubtless acts with discretion, but still according to his sovereignty. Wisely not wantonly he rules, but ever according to the counsel of his own will. Election, then, is sovereign.

    I come to the hardest part of my task this morning, Election in its justice. Now, I shall defend this great fact, that God has chosen men to himself, and I shall regard it from rather a different point of view from that which is usually taken. My defence is just this. You tell me, if God has chosen some men to eternal life, that he has been unjust. I ask you to prove it. The burden of the proof lies with you. For I would have you remember that none merited this at all. Is there one man in the whole world who would have the impertinence to say that he merits anything of his Maker? If so, be it known unto you that he shall have all he merits; and his reward will be the flames of hell for ever, for that is the utmost that any man ever merited of God. God is in debt to no man, and at the last great day every man shall have as much love as much pity, and as much goodness, as he deserves. (Sermon on Election 6:244)
    Spurgeon must not have seen God's answer to the children of Israel when they accused Him of being unjust.

    Ezekiel 18:25=30
    25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
    26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
    28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.


    It looks like God Himself declared what merits life and what merits death.

    If man is Totally Depraved the way Calvinists teach, then God could not have been speaking the truth in this passage.
    If God is speaking the truth in this passage, then man is not Totally Depraved the way Calvinists teach.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Spurgeon must not have seen God's answer to the children of Israel when they accused Him of being unjust.

    Ezekiel 18:25=30
    25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
    26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
    28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.


    It looks like God Himself declared what merits life and what merits death.

    If man is Totally Depraved the way Calvinists teach, then God could not have been speaking the truth in this passage.
    If God is speaking the truth in this passage, then man is not Totally Depraved the way Calvinists teach.
    Perhaps you struggle with God choosing Israel and speaking only to His chosen people instead of the whole world. If you recognized the context, you might have a clue.

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    No contradiction.
    God knew that Adam would sin before Creation. God chose to create man and chose to allow man to disobey and bring the curse upon all mankind from generation to generation.
    God knew He would enter into Earth and pay the ransom for those whom He chose to ransom.
    This is NOT Calvinist doctrine. As such, your response is not relevant. In fact, this is exactly counter to Calvinist doctrine and is more akin to Arminian doctrine.

    ...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)

    “But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

    “We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

    In no instance was God obligated to act differently than He has chosen to act.
    The burden is upon you to show that God has been unjust.
    Your own argument tacitly supports my thesis! You've strayed from Calvinist doctrine precisely so that you can declare, "No contradiction."! And that is precisely because you know intuitively that it would be fundamentally unjust for God to punish people for doing what God Himself immutably predestined them to do before they ever existed.

    Also, your post doesn't even address the point of the OP (opening post)! Why ignore the entire post to basical start a debate about what amounts to Arminian style foreknowledge, which I don't even agree with!? It makes no sense.

    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; September 27th, 2018 at 06:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    I've always declared that Calvinism CHANGES the 'character of the God of the Bible.' The Calvinist view of God sees Him as a God that is using His creations as actors in a stage play. He chooses some to be the villain and others to be the Good guys (Heroes) of the play. Shakespear wrote: "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players;" This phrase fits Calvinism to a tee. According to them, it is God who planned everything before the foundation of the world. He created both, the good and the evil. Each following a script written by the Creator of all. Humanity is merely pawns on a gigantic chessboard. Both the good and the evil have no free-will to be anything less than what they were created for.

    According to the Calvinist belief-system God chose certain people (players) to be the 'Elect' and others to be the 'villains.' (non-Elect) The Elect (good guys) inherit eternal life, while the others (villains) are damned to eternal torment. Each must play their part according to the script. Everything must be played out according to the script that was created before the foundation of the world. God is the director of this play according to Calvinistic belief. No one has a free-will to choose, instead, they must play their part according to the script, without deviation. There's no room (or possibility) for improvisation in this play.

    So, if you happen to have been chosen to be the lead (Elect) in this play, you'll have the benefit of spending eternity in Heaven, on the other hand if you've been chosen to play the villain/heavy (non-elect) you'll wind up being cast into the Lake of Fire. This is what it all boils down to. In this particular play you don't have to have any talent to play either part,you're just chosen at random.
    All of which is amoral. No one thinks that Anthony Hopkins actually murdered and ate people in Silence of the Lambs and everyone would think it obsurdly unjust to punish him as though he had.

    Where the analogy breaks down is in the fact that everyone can acknowledge Hopkin's acting skills and admire his performance. In Calvinism, people don't even get that much credit for their actions because every twitch of an eye, every expression on your face, every catch in your throat, every tear, every laugh, every seemingly forgotten line, all of it was meticulously planned for and immutably predestined by God before anything besides God Himself existed.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Spurgeon must not have seen God's answer to the children of Israel when they accused Him of being unjust.

    Ezekiel 18:25=30
    25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
    26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
    28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.


    It looks like God Himself declared what merits life and what merits death.

    If man is Totally Depraved the way Calvinists teach, then God could not have been speaking the truth in this passage.
    If God is speaking the truth in this passage, then man is not Totally Depraved the way Calvinists teach.
    Quite so! Unfortunately, proof texts such as this have no effect on the Calvinist. All they do is twist it in anyway necessary for it not to say what the plain reading would seem to require. Every passage is always interpreted in light of their doctrine - always.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    This is NOT Calvinist doctrine. As such, your response is not relevant. In fact, this is exactly counter to Calvinist doctrine and is more akin to Arminian doctrine.

    ...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)


    Your own argument support my thesis! You've strayed from Calvinist doctrine precisely so that you can declare, "No contradiction." precisely because you know intuitively that it would be fundamentally unjust for God to punish people for doing what He predestined them to do.

    Clete
    You're wrong, Clete. You don't understand Reformed theology, but you certainly parrot false concepts of Reformed theology.
    At the core of our difference is the fact that you harbor in your heart the belief that you are a good person. You imagine that God looks upon you and finds good in your nature.
    I harbor no such imaginations. I know the Bible tells us our sins are as red as scarlet and only Jesus makes us white as snow. I know that as I type, I do so with a corrupted nature that needed to be ransomed from the junk heap. I understand that I am as corrupt as the next person in that junk heap and I have no idea why God would choose to ransom me and not everyone. That reason is harbored by God and God only knows the answer. All I know is that God has provided amazing grace to this corrupted person. I don't know why.
    If this bothers you, take it up with the King and see what he has written. This conflict is not between you and me. This conflict is between you and God.

  18. #11
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    At the core of our difference is the fact that you harbor in your heart the belief that you are a good person. You imagine that God looks upon you and finds good in your nature.
    Since the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren in "all things" then I cannot imagine how anyone can enter the world in any other way than having a good nature:

    "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people"
    (Heb.2:16-17).

    In his commentary on this verse Matthew Poole wrote that "To be made like unto his brethren; a man having a true body and soul like them in every thing, which was necessary to make him a complete Redeemer; agreeable to them in all things necessary to their nature, qualities, conditions, and affections; like them in sorrows, griefs, pains, death" (Matthew Poole, Matthew Poole's Commentary).

    According to Poole the Lord Jesus' body and soul was just like the body and soul of all of his brethren.

    Albert Barnes sees the same truth, writing that "Wherefore in all things - In respect to his body; his soul; his rank and character. There was a propriety that he should be like them, and should partake of their nature." (Albert Barnes, Notes on the Bible).

    How can anyone say that all people enter the world totally corrupted in body and soul with what is said at Hebrews 2:16-17 in view?
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; September 27th, 2018 at 07:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Since the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren in "all things" then I cannot imagine how anyone can enter the world in any other way than having a good nature:

    "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people"
    (Heb.2:16-17).

    In his commentary on this verse Matthew Poole wrote that "To be made like unto his brethren; a man having a true body and soul like them in every thing, which was necessary to make him a complete Redeemer; agreeable to them in all things necessary to their nature, qualities, conditions, and affections; like them in sorrows, griefs, pains, death" (Matthew Poole, Matthew Poole's Commentary).

    According to Poole the Lord Jesus' body and soul was just like the body and soul of all of his brethren.

    Albert Barnes sees the same truth, writing that "Wherefore in all things - In respect to his body; his soul; his rank and character. There was a propriety that he should be like them, and should partake of their nature." (Albert Barnes, Notes on the Bible).

    How can anyone say that all people enter the world totally corrupted in body and soul with what is said at Hebrews 2:16-17 in view?
    Interesting. I assume you view Jesus as perfect God and perfect man. Is this assumption accurate?
    If so, and according to your interpretation of the verses you provided, Jesus is made exactly like other humans, this would mean that all humans are perfect. Or...it would mean that Jesus is just as corrupted as humans.
    Which option do you think is correct?
    Here are a couple verses I look at when considering our corruption from conception.
    Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    Isaiah 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned - every one - to his own way and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
    Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned -
    It seems to me that you are in a quandary. If you are correct in your interpretation, Jesus and all humanity must be perfect...or Jesus and all humanity must be corrupted.
    The only other option is that you have incorrectly interpreted Hebrews 2:16-17. Could it be that Jesus is fully human, but also fully God, which means he is fully a perfect human?
    Hebrews 4:15 states: For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
    It is important to note that the author of Hebrews spends much of the letter showing how Jesus is compared to others and is greater than anything he is compared to.
    Perhaps you might consider your position and interpretation of Hebrews 2:16-17.

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Perhaps you struggle with God choosing Israel and speaking only to His chosen people instead of the whole world. If you recognized the context, you might have a clue.
    I don't have a problem at all with God choosing the children of Israel to be a light to the Gentiles.
    Do you?
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    All I know is that God has provided amazing grace to this corrupted person. I don't know why.
    If you don't know why, there is no reason to believe that God provided any grace to you.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to genuineoriginal For Your Post:

    Clete (September 28th, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I don't have a problem at all with God choosing the children of Israel to be a light to the Gentiles.
    Do you?
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    If you don't know why, there is no reason to believe that God provided any grace to you.
    Both your points are irrelevant to the topic.

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