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Thread: Questions for the Mid Acts Dispensationalists: What Happened to the Remnant?

  1. #16
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Prophesies about the remnant are not prophesies about the BOC.
    All of those who made up the remnant passed away to be with the Lord centuries ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The Remnant are all Jews, and the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile.
    According to your reasoning Paul was not in the Body of Christ because he identified himself as being a Jew:

    "For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Ro.11:1).

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The Jews in the Body of Christ are no longer distinguished as Jew.
    Then Paul must have been confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The were law-keeping Jews who were part of the nation of Israel.

    They ARE NOT and WERE NOT part of the Remnant EVER.
    Then that eliminates Paul because he was a law-keeper, just as were the following Jews who were in the Body of Christ:

    "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:23-24).

    It is evident that when Paul uses the pronoun "we" that he was referring to those like him who were law-keeping Jews who were previously members of the commonwealth of Israel. And since they were previously under the law and a part of Israel they were the remnant out of Israel. And here Paul refers to the one remnant:

    "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (Ro.11:5).

    It is a fact that all those who lived under the law who were saved were saved by grace through faith:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
    (Ro.4:16).

    So we can understand that the remnant were all saved by faith through grace even though they previously lived under the law. And the following verse speaks of two groups and one of them is the remnant and the other the believing Gentiles:

    "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
    (Eph.2:13-16).

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    Get your armor ready! Tambora's Avatar
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    The prophesies of the remnant of Israel are not the prophesies of the BOC.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Verses in the NT where "remnant" appears.

    Matthew (for Israel)

    Mat_22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.



    Romans 9-11 (for Israel)


    Rom_9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


    Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



    Revelation (for Israel)

    Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


    Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    Rev_19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    According to your reasoning Paul was not in the Body of Christ
    Then you clearly don't understand my reasoning.

    because he identified himself as being a Jew:

    "For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Ro.11:1).
    So what?

    He was a Jew by birth. You're clearly not paying attention to what I'm saying, Jerry, and it's starting to annoy me.

    I said that there is no DISTINCTION in the Body of Christ.

    In Israel, under the law, there IS a distinction, and it's between Jew and Gentile.

    In the Body of Christ, there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile.

    Then Paul must have been confused.


    Then that eliminates Paul because he was a law-keeper,
    So what?

    He was a law-keeper. He was not part of the Remnant. In fact, Paul was one of the ones KILLING what would become known as the Remnant.

    just as were the following Jews who were in the Body of Christ:

    "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:23-24).
    Proof by repeated assertion is a fallacy, and so is question begging. This is both.

    Who is Paul talking to? Is He talking to Jews in this passage? or is he talking to Gentiles? He's CLEARLY talking to Gentiles,

    Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: - Galatians 1:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV

    Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),[/YELLOW]and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.[/YELLOW]They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. - Galatians 2:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

    O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? - Galatians 3:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV

    It is evident that when Paul uses the pronoun "we" that he was referring to those like him who were law-keeping Jews who were previously members of the commonwealth of Israel.
    No, it's not evident, because He's referring to "we in the Body of Christ."

    He constantly, throughout his epistles, contrasts "we" vs "they", speaking about Jews and those in the Body of Christ.

    And since they were previously under the law and a part of Israel they were the remnant out of Israel.
    This is based on a false premise.

    And here Paul refers to the one remnant:
    "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (Ro.11:5).
    So what? Jerry, you're cherry-picking verses to support your position. That's never a good sign.

    It is a fact that all those who lived under the law who were saved were saved by grace through faith:
    No, they were saved by keeping the law, because one of the laws was to have faith.


    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
    (Ro.4:16).

    So we can understand that the remnant were all saved by faith through grace
    Except they weren't. They were saved by "enduring to the end." That means keeping the law until your death.

    even though they previously lived under the law.
    They were still under the law. Why do you think there was such confusion among the twelve when trying to understand what Paul was saying? They were still under the law, and Paul was saying "don't keep the law, because if you do, you're cursed!"

    And the following verse speaks of two groups and one of them is the remnant and the other the believing Gentiles:
    Except it's not. As I addressed multiple times above, even though you keep repeating it, hoping it'll stick, Jews does not necessarily mean remnant!

    Spoiler

    "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
    (Eph.2:13-16).

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    No, it's not evident, because He's referring to "we in the Body of Christ."
    So when Paul uses the pronoun "we" in the following passage his reference includes the Gentile believers in the Body of Christ?:

    "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith"
    (Gal.3:23-24).

    That is impossible because the Gentile believers were never under the law:

    "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).

    When Paul spoke of those who were kept under the law at Galatians 3:23 he was addressing Jews who had previously been under the Law of Moses and who had also been of Israel. Therefore, common sense dictates that all of Jewish believers in the Body of Christ in the first centuries made up the remnant.

    And the remnant included the Twelve!

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    The twelve are never referred to as the remnant.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    The twelve are never referred to as the remnant.
    Do you deny that when Paul uses the word "we" in the following verse he was addressing the Jews who were previously under the law?:

    "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:23-24).

    When Paul spoke of those who had been kept under the law at Galatians 3:23 he was addressing Jews who had previously been under the Law of Moses and who had also been of Israel. Those people are the people whom Paul calls the "remnant" at Romans 11:5.

    Since there is can only be one remnant that means that the Twelve were among that remnant and therefore they are members of the Body of Christ.

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    "From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

    Romans 11: 1-5 refers to the remnant of Old Covenant Israel who believed and who began the New Covenant as the Body of Christ.

    Dispensationalists sometimes seem to say that there is also no remnant of those claiming to be of the Body of Christ at times after the First Century when the remnant of Israel were alive.

    The principle of the remnant says that in a time of apostasy that God creates a remnant to carry on his plan of redemption. This principle is taken from the history of Old Covenant Israel during which there were periods of apostasy and at that time there was a remnant. Paul mentions one of these periods of apostasy and of a remnant at that time in Romans 11: 2-4.

    The New Testament contains a number of prophecies about apostasy, and of false prophets that were predicted to arise. Would dispensationalists deny that those claiming to be Christians fall into periods of apostasy?

    Is there a dispensationalist position on the remnant in Revelation 12: 17? "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." In Romans 11: 5 remnant is from λειμμα, Strong's 3005, leimma, from 3007; a remainder:--remnant. In Revelation 12: 17 remnant is from λοιπων, 3062. loipoy loy-poy' masculine plural of a derivative of 3007; remaining ones:--other, which remain, remnant, residue, rest.3063.

    loipon loy-pon' neuter singular of the same as 3062; something remaining (adverbially):--besides, finally, furthermore, (from) henceforth, moreover, now, + it remaineth, then. This is from: http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strong...n&isindex=3062

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    The remnant of which Paul speaks at Romans 11:5 were the only ones who were saved out of all the Jews living in the first century. And after Israel was temporarily set aside they were made members of the Body of Christ.

    When Paul uses the word "we" in the following verse he was addressing the Jews who were previously under the law and therefore members of the commonwealth of Israel previously?:

    "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:23-24)

    When Paul spoke of those who had been kept under the law at Galatians 3:23 he was addressing Jews who had previously been under the Law of Moses and who had also been of Israel. Those people are the same people who were previously the believing remnant out of Israel until that nation was temporarily set aside.

    Since there is can only be one remnant that means that the Twelve were among that remnant and therefore they are members of the Body of Christ.

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    It looks like dispensationalism teaches that there is no remnant that can exist after the remnant of Old Covenant Israel died off, and there is no remnant during the Church Age. I asked if there is a dispensationalist position on the remnant in Revelation 12: 17. Maybe dispensationalists just ignore Revelation 12: 17, as they ignore some other New Testament scriptures which do not agree with their theology.

    For example, here are some New Testament scriptures that can be looked at to see if they agree or disagree with the doctrines of dispensationalism: : John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Ephesians 4: 4, Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11: 17-20, II Corinthians 3: 6-11, Galatians 3: 3, 16-17, 27-29, Hebrews 10: 9, and Hebrews 8: 13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    It looks like dispensationalism teaches that there is no remnant that can exist after the remnant of Old Covenant Israel died off, and there is no remnant during the Church Age.
    Jerry does, dispensationalism doesn't.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    See: http://www.according2prophecy.org/52colleague.html

    "The remnant is the Jewish wing of the Church. The church is an airplane that only has two wings, a Jewish wing and a Gentile wing. If one wing is lost or ignored, the church crashes."

    I thought that the founders of dispensationalism said that Old Covenant Israel and the Church are different groups of God's people who remain separate. Dispensationalism is a confusing theology.

    See: http://www.according2prophecy.org/52colleague.html

    "Remnant: The concept of remnant can be Biblically defined as that continuous portion, be it large or small, of the community of ethnic Israel which has been supernaturally preserved and redeemed through various divine judgments throughout various dispensations. This preservation is on account of God’s sovereign choice, or election, and not by virtue of human effort."

    The above tries to define the remnant as being only a Jewish group and there is therefore no remnant of Gentiles or of the Church, though sometimes dispensationalism says that saved Jews and Saved Gentiles make up a unity of God's people.

    But Revelation 12: 17 says "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

    Is not Revelation 12: 17 a prophecy, not a statement on the history of Old Covenant Israel? And is not this remnant a remnant during the Church age, and the existence of a remnant implies falling away from sound doctrine - see I Timothy 1: 10, especially II Timothy 4: 3?

    Dispensationalism itself could not be a falling away from sound doctrine, could it, not in the eyes of the dispensationalists?

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    See: http://www.according2prophecy.org/52colleague.html

    "The remnant is the Jewish wing of the Church. The church is an airplane that only has two wings, a Jewish wing and a Gentile wing. If one wing is lost or ignored, the church crashes."

    I thought that the founders of dispensationalism said that Old Covenant Israel and the Church are different groups of God's people who remain separate. Dispensationalism is a confusing theology.

    See: http://www.according2prophecy.org/52colleague.html

    "Remnant: The concept of remnant can be Biblically defined as that continuous portion, be it large or small, of the community of ethnic Israel which has been supernaturally preserved and redeemed through various divine judgments throughout various dispensations. This preservation is on account of God’s sovereign choice, or election, and not by virtue of human effort."

    The above tries to define the remnant as being only a Jewish group and there is therefore no remnant of Gentiles or of the Church, though sometimes dispensationalism says that saved Jews and Saved Gentiles make up a unity of God's people.

    But Revelation 12: 17 says "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

    Is not Revelation 12: 17 a prophecy, not a statement on the history of Old Covenant Israel? And is not this remnant a remnant during the Church age, and the existence of a remnant implies falling away from sound doctrine - see I Timothy 1: 10, especially II Timothy 4: 3?

    Dispensationalism itself could not be a falling away from sound doctrine, could it, not in the eyes of the dispensationalists?
    Sorry, but your guy is confused.

    His problem is that he has "studied the Bible with a focus on prophesy". His unbalanced approach is bound to lead to the very problems that he exhibits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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