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Thread: Jews And Gentiles Same Goal

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    I did not say that, you did. When the gospel is presented, it is the Gospel of the grace of God contained in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    There's nothing wrong with the passage you quoted. I understand that to apply to everyone... but you don't apply that to everyone.

    With your answer, you were assuming that I am Gentile and not a Jew and thus only presenting one of your two gospels. What are the effects or consequences if the wrong gospel is believed? And how do you (in the general sense, how does anyone) discern who is Jew or Gentile for which gospel to apply?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    There's nothing wrong with the passage you quoted. I understand that to apply to everyone... but you don't apply that to everyone.

    With your answer, you were assuming that I am Gentile and not a Jew and thus only presenting one of your two gospels. What are the effects or consequences if the wrong gospel is believed? And how do you (in the general sense, how does anyone) discern who is Jew or Gentile for which gospel to apply?
    Today all are saved under the Gospel of Grace.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Today all are saved under the Gospel of Grace.
    OK, I don't disagree with that, but that seems to contradict your previous stance. If I am a Jew, you said a different gospel applied.

    If I can trace my blood back to one of the twelve sons of Jacob through my matriarchal line, am I a Jew?
    If I have been folded into the congregation of Israel through one of my ancestors (as Rachel from Jericho) am I a Jew?
    If I have been adopted and raised by a Jewish family observing Jewish rites and practices, am I a Jew?

    What happens to the Jew that obeys (as you call it) the Gospel of Grace? Shall he be saved as a Gentile?

    I have more questions further and some source text of Romans 2 but may I wait for those answers?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    OK, I don't disagree with that, but that seems to contradict your previous stance. If I am a Jew, you said a different gospel applied.

    If I can trace my blood back to one of the twelve sons of Jacob through my matriarchal line, am I a Jew?
    If I have been folded into the congregation of Israel through one of my ancestors (as Rachel from Jericho) am I a Jew?
    If I have been adopted and raised by a Jewish family observing Jewish rites and practices, am I a Jew?

    What happens to the Jew that obeys (as you call it) the Gospel of Grace? Shall he be saved as a Gentile?

    I have more questions further and some source text of Romans 2 but may I wait for those answers?
    The Gospel to the Jews is there but we can't be saved by it. It is a works/salvation Gospel through repentance and baptism. The Jew saved under the Gospel of Grace is saved as the Gentile is.
    Last edited by Bright Raven; September 19th, 2018 at 03:37 PM.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    The Gospel to the Gentiles is there but we can't be saved by it. It is a works/salvation Gospel through repentance and baptism. The Jew saved under the Gospel of Grace is saved as the Gentile is.
    God has never offered salvation by works. The Law of Moses never offered salvation or eternal life. From the beginning, those who loved the Lord were justified by faith.

    Heb 10:4 KJV
    (4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    Heb 11:24-26 KJV
    (24) By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
    (25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
    (26) Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

    If the Jew or Gentile sells all that he has and follows Christ, is baptized into his name and believes on him as God and Christ, is he not proving his faith and belief, and will not the Spirit in him me be in evidence by its fruits, and shall he not be saved by His abundant grace?

    I don't see where there's any difference here. What is it that you are suggesting that the "gospel of the Jews" actually is, in means and effect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    The Gospel to the Gentiles is there but we can't be saved by it. It is a works/salvation Gospel through repentance and baptism. The Jew saved under the Gospel of Grace is saved as the Gentile is.

    I said
    lolol What is wrong with you. Jesus created the gospel, its the gospel of Jesus Christ. It says peter preached the gospel, the apostles preached the gospel, Paul preached the gospel. They all preached the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the one that called all of them. With one gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    God has never offered salvation by works. The Law of Moses never offered salvation or eternal life. From the beginning, those who loved the Lord were justified by faith.

    Heb 10:4 KJV
    (4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    Heb 11:24-26 KJV
    (24) By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
    (25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
    (26) Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

    If the Jew or Gentile sells all that he has and follows Christ, is baptized into his name and believes on him as God and Christ, is he not proving his faith and belief, and will not the Spirit in him me be in evidence by its fruits, and shall he not be saved by His abundant grace?

    I don't see where there's any difference here. What is it that you are suggesting that the "gospel of the Jews" actually is, in means and effect?
    Sorry, I misstated the first sentence of the post; It should be the Gospel to the Jews is there....
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Sorry, I misstated the first sentence of the post; It should be the Gospel to the Jews is there....
    I figured that was what you meant, but I still meant the question as I asked it anyway (I corrected it mentally but didn't mention it out loud.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Sorry, I misstated the first sentence of the post; It should be the Gospel to the Jews is there....
    I said
    Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to be tested by Peter and the other apostles on the gospel they were teaching. Peter and the other apostles found no difference.

    [Act 15:2-4, 6-9
    [2] Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
    [3] So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
    [4] And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. ...
    [6] Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
    [7] And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up [and] said to them: "Men [and] brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
    [8] "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as [He did] to us,
    [9] "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    I said
    Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to be tested by Peter and the other apostles on the gospel they were teaching. Peter and the other apostles found no difference.

    [Act 15:2-4, 6-9
    [2] Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
    [3] So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
    [4] And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. ...
    [6] Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
    [7] And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up [and] said to them: "Men [and] brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
    [8] "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as [He did] to us,
    [9] "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    You have yet to explain why there is a Gospel to the Jews and Gospel to the Gentiles and the difference between the two. Just so you know the difference is that under the gospel to the circumcision being saved involves repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) . Under the Gospel to the uncircumcision being saved involves the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) .
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Just so you know the difference is that under the gospel to the circumcision being saved involves repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38)
    I don't see the word "saved" at Acts 2:38.

    Besides that, those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith just like the Gentiles:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    You have yet to explain why there is a Gospel to the Jews and Gospel to the Gentiles and the difference between the two. Just so you know the difference is that under the gospel to the circumcision being saved involves repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) . Under the Gospel to the uncircumcision being saved involves the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) .
    The Gentiles need not repent?

    2Co 7:9-10 KJV
    (9) Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
    (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

    The Gentiles should not be baptized?

    Mat 28:19 KJV
    (19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    The Jew does not need the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

    Luk 22:19-20 KJV
    (19) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    (20) Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

    Heb 10:26-29 KJV
    (26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    (28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    (29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    I keep forgetting which books are considered applicable to one gospel and which are considered irrelevant. Did I guess correctly? Hebrews for the Hebrews? Gospels for the Jews? Corinthians to the Gentiles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    You have yet to explain why there is a Gospel to the Jews and Gospel to the Gentiles and the difference between the two. Just so you know the difference is that under the gospel to the circumcision being saved involves repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) . Under the Gospel to the uncircumcision being saved involves the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) .
    I said
    lol There is no difference. It is all the same gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ brought His gospel to the Jews first but they rejected it. Then He gave His gospel to the Gentiles the very same gospel. What is gospel? The good news. You have still got to learn the difference between saved and salvation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
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    I said
    Hello Jerry. Long time no see.

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