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  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Really? So wicked leaders are God's ministers?
    Who were the governing authorities when Paul wrote Romans 13?

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Really? So wicked leaders are God's ministers?
    Yes. Even wicked leaders are God's ministers, because He established their authority to execute justice on the wicked.

    I don't think so!
    Too bad.

    And no, the governments of this world expect us to obey their laws even if they contradict God's laws, and we can be fined or even put in jail if we don't obey them. But we should listen to God not man and obey God first and foremost.
    Marhig, you keep saying things that we agree upon. When are you going to put forth your argument that counters mine instead of agrees with it?

    For instance, a couple here in the UK refused to let a gay couple stay in their hotel because they believe that to commit a homosexual act is wrong before God so they refused to let this happen in their hotel, and they were hauled in front of the law courts and fined and told that they are not to discriminate anymore. What should they do, obey the UK courts, seeing as they are God's ministers (according to you)? Or carry on obeying God, who tells us that to commit gay acts are wrong?
    I think that they should listen to what Peter said...

    But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. - Acts 5:29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV

    AND to what Paul said:

    Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. - Romans 13:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV

    We obey the earthly authorities because they are God's ministers, and He appointed governments to rule over people. And we obey God rather than men when those authorities violate God's laws.

    https://carm.org/questions/skeptics-...nments-are-bad

    God's true ministers obey the living God!
    Do all true Christians obey God all the time? If not, then your position is invalid, because you're demanding a standard of righteousness for governments that is higher than God's.

    Also, the only righteous judge is the living God, so the only righteous way that God's people judge is by his word!
    What does this have to do with anything?

  4. #348
    Over 5000 post club marhig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Yes. Even wicked leaders are God's ministers, because He established their authority to execute justice on the wicked.



    Too bad.



    Marhig, you keep saying things that we agree upon. When are you going to put forth your argument that counters mine instead of agrees with it?



    I think that they should listen to what Peter said...

    But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. - Acts 5:29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV

    AND to what Paul said:

    Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. - Romans 13:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV

    We obey the earthly authorities because they are God's ministers, and He appointed governments to rule over people. And we obey God rather than men when those authorities violate God's laws.

    https://carm.org/questions/skeptics-...nments-are-bad



    Do all true Christians obey God all the time? If not, then your position is invalid, because you're demanding a standard of righteousness for governments that is higher than God's.



    What does this have to do with anything?
    Sorry but I don't agree, the leaders of this world are not God's ministers. God's true ministers bare witness to the truth and preach God's word and partake in the sufferings of Christ. The ministers of the world take care of the world, the ministers of God take care of the things of God.

    These are true ministers of God, and Paul was one of them, and this is what they sometimes go through to bare witness to the truth.

    2 Corinthians 6

    Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: But in all things approving ourselves as the MINISTERS OF GOD, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

    And these ministers of God have rule over those who belong to God and they rule by the word of God which given them by the power of the Holy Spirit, God's people judge by God's word.

    Hebrews 13

    Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

    I won't be posting any more regarding this, we don't agree with each other. So I'll leave it there and agree to disagree.

  5. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Sorry but I don't agree,
    That's too bad, because Paul is pretty darn clear.

    the leaders of this world are not God's ministers.
    The Bible says otherwise.

    Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...7&version=NKJV

    God's true ministers bare witness to the truth and preach God's word and partake in the sufferings of Christ.
    Show me in scripture "God's true ministers", Marhig.

    The ministers of the world take care of the world, the ministers of God take care of the things of God.
    And that is not what the Bible says.

    See Romans 13.

    These are true ministers of God, and Paul was one of them,
    You call Paul a "true minister of God", yet you deny that he explicitly says that governmental authorities are God's ministers.



    and this is what they sometimes go through to bare witness to the truth.

    2 Corinthians 6

    Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: But in all things approving ourselves as the MINISTERS OF GOD, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
    NO ONE has said that ONLY governmental authorities are God's ministers. So what's your point?

    And these ministers of God have rule over those who belong to God and they rule by the word of God which given them by the power of the Holy Spirit,
    So do these "God's ministers" of yours have the authority to collect taxes and customs?

    God's people judge by God's word.

    Hebrews 13

    Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
    Ok, And?

    I won't be posting any more regarding this, we don't agree with each other. So I'll leave it there and agree to disagree.
    So you're a coward who can't stand for what she believes in?

    "Agreeing to disagree" is the cowards way out when someone knows their position is untenable, but they still want to hold onto their beliefs.

    I stand firm in my beliefs, Marhig, because my understanding of the Bible COMES FROM the Bible. I never have to be ashamed of what it says.
    Last edited by JudgeRightly; October 8th, 2018 at 05:49 AM.

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