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Thread: Should Children Be Executed If They've...

  1. #271
    Member of the 10 year club on TOL!! CabinetMaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    The Jewish observation of the Sabbath that began with an object lesson shows how effective it is.

    Numbers 15:32-36
    32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.
    So would be mad at Jesus for healing on the Sabath.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    What do we actually see?
    Washington DC has the highest murder rate and does not have the death penalty.
    West Virginia without the death penalty has a higher murder rate than Virginia with the death penalty.
    New Hampshire with the death penalty and Vermont without the death penalty are tied for the lowest murder rate.


    Spoiler

    Gee thanks for posting graphics that basically support my position. The only real argument you seem to be making is that the death penalty alone does not determine murder rates but that is not something I proposed. None the less your graphic shows that with a few to be expected exceptions the states with a death penalty have higher murder rates.

  3. #273
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    When Christ died on the cross and ushered in the New Covenant with His blood.
    God's Law cannot be changed because it is perfect.
    The Medes and Persians tried to copy the way God's Law cannot be changed.

    Daniel 6:15
    15 Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.


    The book of Esther, especially Esther 8, is provided to show how a New Law (New Covenant) can provide a way to escape the death ordained by an Old Law (Old Covenant).

    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Are Gentiles under the law?
    You are asking the wrong question.

    The right question is:
    Should Gentiles do the things contained in the law?

    Romans 2:13-15
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
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  5. #274
    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Because you are wrong.
    But you won't explain how or why.
    Go spend some time in the New Covenant for a while.
    You mean where it talks about works being no part of salvation? That "new covenant"?

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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  7. #275
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Gee thanks for posting graphics that basically support my position. . . . your graphic shows that with a few to be expected exceptions the states with a death penalty have higher murder rates.
    You seem to have a problem understanding that correlation doesn't imply causation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    The only real argument you seem to be making is that the death penalty alone does not determine murder rates but that is not something I proposed.
    You have repeatedly proposed the argument that the death penalty is the cause of higher murder rates and suggested that removing the death penalty will lower murder rates.
    That is foolishness on your part.
    Feel free to never try that argument again.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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  9. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You seem to have a problem understanding that correlation doesn't imply causation.

    You have repeatedly proposed the argument that the death penalty is the cause of higher murder rates and suggested that removing the death penalty will lower murder rates.
    That is foolishness on your part.
    Feel free to never try that argument again.
    No, I do not argue that the death penalty causes higher murder rates. I point out that it does not appear to lower them where it is applied.

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  11. #277
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    No, I do not argue that the death penalty causes higher murder rates. I point out that it does not appear to lower them where it is applied.
    You mean that the murder rate does not appear to be lower in states where the death penalty is mis-applied?
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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  13. #278
    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    No, I do not argue that the death penalty causes higher murder rates. I point out that it does not appear to lower them where it is applied.
    You may want to check out the following chart then. The U.S. Supreme Court had reinstituted the death penalty in July of 1976 after having struck down all state death penalty statutes almost exactly four years earlier. During those four years without the death penalty there were about 12,000 more murders as compared to the four years prior to 1972, an increase of 19 percent, and more than 10,000 additional families who had raised a child who then became a murderer.

    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

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  15. #279
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I would imagine that had we gone back to executing criminals convicted of capital crimes in '73, those 1400 people you mention would still be alive and would be productive members of society, instead of most likely being convicted of crimes and put 6 feet under.
    "Imagination" and unsupported assertion is all you've offered from pretty much the get go. In the meantime, it's all okay for six year old kids to be executed by being stabbed to death if "appropriate" and by your own words no less.

    Tell me JR, what kind of person do you think would be capable of carrying such a sentence out? A well balanced individual? Do tell.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  16. #280
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I would imagine that had we gone back to executing criminals convicted of capital crimes in '73, those 1400 people you mention would still be alive and would be productive members of society, instead of most likely being convicted of crimes and put 6 feet under.
    You can imagine anything, but there's really no reason to believe that. What we know is that we execute innocent people. We don't have to do that.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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  18. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    You may want to check out the following chart then. The U.S. Supreme Court had reinstituted the death penalty in July of 1976 after having struck down all state death penalty statutes almost exactly four years earlier. During those four years without the death penalty there were about 12,000 more murders as compared to the four years prior to 1972, an increase of 19 percent, and more than 10,000 additional families who had raised a child who then became a murderer.

    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
    INteresting but if you look at the whole chart it is hardly conclusive as this change seems to be in the range of variation both before and after. Then in the 90's we see murder rates trending down even as few and fewer states are enforcing their death penalty laws.

  19. #282
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Well, There's Your Problem:
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  20. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Well, There's Your Problem:
    So from 1985, the length of time between sentencing and execution has steadily gone up, and according to the chart JW have provided the murder rate spiked in the 90s but since overall the murder rate has been steady or gone down.

    This really doesn't help your position. If anything this is saying that increasing the time between sentencing and execution is LOWERING murder rates.

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