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Thread: God will not give His glory to another, or will He?

  1. #61
    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Yes, that means that some of the words written in the prophecy are the words spoken by the Father and repeated by Jesus for accuracy.


    I am not sure where you get the idea that Only Yahwah can make the claim to be the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.

    Jesus is the first and the last.

    Revelation 1:5
    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    1 Corinthians 15:45
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.



    Jesus is the beginning and the end.

    Colossians 1:18
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Romans 10:4
    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    You are wasting my time.

    Matthew 5:17-19.
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of (the / these) commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches (the / these) commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Ephesians 2:15
    Having abolished in his flesh the (enmity / hostility), even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    Romans 10:4
    Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

  2. #62
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    You are wasting my time.

    Matthew 5:17-19.
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of (the / these) commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches (the / these) commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Ephesians 2:15
    Having abolished in his flesh the (enmity / hostility), even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    Romans 10:4
    Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
    The Lord's statement in that Matthew passage was NOT just about the law of Moses.

    Way too many folks here do think that the Lord came to abolish the Prophets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  4. #63
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Great job of dictionary theology.
    Dictionary theology is not the way to understand the Bible.

    My point was that we are not told what the title "the beginning and the end" is referring to, so there is no way to justify claiming that only YHVH can claim that title.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Matthew 5:17-19.
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of (the / these) commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches (the / these) commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Romans 10:4
    Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
    Jesus did not abolish the Law nor did He abolish the Prophets.
    Jesus did fulfill the requirements of the Law for righteousness, but there are still prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Ephesians 2:15
    Having abolished in his flesh the (enmity / hostility), even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    Jesus abolished the hostility between Jews and Gentiles caused by the ordinances in the Law of Commandments.
    Jesus did not abolish the Law.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Dictionary theology is not the way to understand the Bible.
    Indeed, I was being sarcastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    My point was that we are not told what the title "the beginning and the end" is referring to, so there is no way to justify claiming that only YHVH can claim that title.
    The the book of Revelation it is most definitely referring to God.

    Rev 22:13 KJV I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    Refers to THIS:

    Isa 44:6 KJV Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  8. #66
    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Has everyone seen this?



  9. #67
    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    That verse states that those are the words of God the Father, as does Revelation 1:1.
    Notice how the author is speaking about God and Jesus as two different beings:
    Two titles in parallel do not necessarily mean two separate beings. You are offering this as an objection which if successful would only create biblical contradiction... justifying your choice of one of two contradicting sides. I'm pointing out that this is not a valid objection, such as illustrated in the following passage:

    Isaiah 44:6 KJV
    (6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    For your objection to carry true that would mean it must be true always, such as in Isaiah 44:6 above. Do you understand that passage as speaking of one being or two?

    I can see why you would think that way, but it is not conclusive, not when John is shown that God and Jesus are separate beings.

    Revelation 5:6-7
    6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
    Mind if we look further who it is that sits upon that throne? First, the Lamb is in the midst of that throne, and elsewhere we see that the Lamb is also included in that throne. There is only one throne (not thrones) and the Lamb owns the throne.

    Revelation 7:17 KJV
    (17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    Revelation 22:1 KJV
    (1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.


    Branching off of the thrones track, He that sits on the throne 1) lives for ever and ever and 2) created all things.

    Revelation 4:9-11 KJV
    (9) And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
    (10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
    (11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Colossians 1:15-16 KJV
    (15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    John 1:3 KJV
    (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 1:10 KJV
    (10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    That brings us back to Jesus... is the one who sits on that throne, he is the Lord God Almighty, because he is identified as our creator. What we have here is a solid "IS" and there is never a solid "IS NOT."

    I was raised to believe in the Trinity doctrine.
    No wonder you got confused.

    I found that looking at the scriptures through the lens of the Trinity doctrine only confuses what the scriptures say instead of clarifying them.
    No disagreement there.

    Yes, there is a reason Jesus uses those titles, but it is not blasphemy because that form of title and address is NOT reserved only for the One LORD God.
    REALLY ??? Would you care to explain that? The definition of that title is in Isaiah three times, and it is very emphatic that it is to identify "I the LORD" and "beside me there is no God" and "Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth." Again, the identity of the Creator, which we already have established from at least two New Testament sources... plus ...

    Actually the ultimate defense against blasphemy is when the accused never actually did the acts He is being accused of doing.

    You are confused, as shown by your use of all capital letters when writing lord.

    Mark 2:27-28
    27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
    28 Therefore the Son of man is lord also of the sabbath.


    Did you miss who the sabbath was made for?
    Did you miss the word "Therefore"?
    Did you miss the "made" part? Who MADE the Sabbath? Pretend you are a Jew who has been raised his entire life keeping that Sabbath day from the sixth day sundown to the seventh day sundown, each and every Sabbath reminded of the commandment:

    Exodus 20:11 KJV
    (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    I didn't make a mistake. There is only one Lord of the Sabbath, that is the LORD. Anyone claiming to be the Lord of the Sabbath is claiming to be the Creator God. The Jews were right when they said "thou makest thyself God." but the mistake they made was in refusing to recognize the signs and miracles he gave of God (thus validating him.) Jesus can say "Therefore" because the Son of Man is the Son of God, and the Son of God is the Creator God. No other explanation makes any sort of sense, there is no other "Lord" of the Sabbath.

    Genuine, if we take a step back we might make better progress by defining some rules, or perhaps even attempting to state the other's views as we understand them. I'm not selling a Trinity package, I'm simply maintaining that "Scripture emphatically says this" so therefore "Let us form any other views beneath what it actually said." If we accept the known first then we can legitimately try to create a model or understanding second.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Look again at Revelation 1:1 and see who gave the prophecy:

    Revelation 1:1
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    "God" shows the authority. You have to keep reading to get the rest of the Revelation, that Revelation being that Jesus is our God, He sits upon that throne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    The different bible passages are not all the same.
    Did you understand what I meant when I referred to source texts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    God the Father gave it to Christ to give it to John. Christ is not the Alpha and Omega, and the First and the Last. Only Yahwah can make that claim.
    Revelation 22:12-16 KJV
    (12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    (13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    (14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    (15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    (16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    Yes, only Jehovah can make that claim, and Jesus made that claim again here. Why fight against what is so obvious? Do you object that one God can be known by multiple names?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Great job of dictionary theology.
    What does it mean when Jesus (and the LORD) say they are the beginning and the end? It's not that hard if you just remember the first instance of the word "beginning" in scripture.

    Genesis 1:1 KJV
    (1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    John 1:1-3 KJV
    (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    (2) The same was in the beginning with God.
    (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    "The Beginning" means the Creator, as shown from our "In the beginning" passages.

    ... so what about "The End?" Go to the very end of scripture.

    Revelation 22:20-21 KJV
    (20) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    (21) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    It might also be observed that he is the end, as in it is he that will destroy and put an end to all wickedness. That's also in the end of both Testaments, in Revelation and Malachi.

    Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
    (1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    (2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    (3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
    (13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    (14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    (15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    (16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    So "the beginning and the end" seems to match against the beginning and the end of our scriptures, which also at the same time tells us about the beginning of all things (the Creator) and the Judge of the Quick and the Dead who will destroy all evil.

    Very descriptive that phrase was.

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    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Revelation 22:12-16 KJV
    (12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    (13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    (14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    (15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    (16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    Yes, only Jehovah can make that claim, and Jesus made that claim again here. Why fight against what is so obvious? Do you object that one God can be known by multiple names?
    That claim by Christ in Rev 1:11 is not in the (OLDEST TEXT OF THE BIBLE.) If you do not pay attention to what I say, then you waste my time. Study both sides of any Christian controversy before you speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    What does it mean when Jesus (and the LORD) say they are the beginning and the end? It's not that hard if you just remember the first instance of the word "beginning" in scripture.

    Genesis 1:1 KJV
    (1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    John 1:1-3 KJV
    (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    (2) The same was in the beginning with God.
    (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    "The Beginning" means the Creator, as shown from our "In the beginning" passages.

    ... so what about "The End?" Go to the very end of scripture.

    Revelation 22:20-21 KJV
    (20) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    (21) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    It might also be observed that he is the end, as in it is he that will destroy and put an end to all wickedness. That's also in the end of both Testaments, in Revelation and Malachi.

    Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
    (1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    (2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    (3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
    (13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    (14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    (15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    (16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    So "the beginning and the end" seems to match against the beginning and the end of our scriptures, which also at the same time tells us about the beginning of all things (the Creator) and the Judge of the Quick and the Dead who will destroy all evil.

    Very descriptive that phrase was.
    Indeed... it is very clearly and unambiguously confirming the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ!
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    That claim by Christ in Rev 1:11 is not in the (OLDEST TEXT OF THE BIBLE.) If you do not pay attention to what I say, then you waste my time. Study both sides of any Christian controversy before you speak.
    So you believe that "oldest text" is indeed reliable? Tell me, are you speaking of Sinaicatus or Vaticanus, and have you ever taken a look at what those texts physically look like? Seen the cross-outs and the like? Noted the obvious flaws within the text itself? Seen the nine-fold repetitions like "Holy holy holy holy holy holy holy holy holy?"

    Noted that these two that are called "the oldest and most reliable manuscripts" disagree with each other, and in practice the modern translators pick and choose whatever minority readings they like if they find even one instance of what they want? What does the Bible say about witnesses who cannot even agree with each other?

    Mar 14:57-59 KJV
    (57) And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
    (58) We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
    (59) But neither so did their witness agree together.

    Cherub, with respect, I am quite familiar with the other side, and it is on very shaky and non-desirable ground. May I ask that you also be willing to investigate both claims and counter-claims with respect?

    I understand that this touches to a belief that you hold, but is your belief drawn from evidence, or is the evidence filtered to that which is conducive to your belief? This is a choice we all are inevitably faced with at one time or another.

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    Has anyone noted any significance between Methuselah's name (its Hebrew meaning) and that Noah's flood would have occurred with the same timing as his death? His death shall bring... ? It would seem that his death was the trigger to bring something into effect.

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