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Thread: God will not give His glory to another, or will He?

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    God will not give His glory to another, or will He?


    Isaiah 42:8
    8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.



    John 17:20-22
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


    Did God give His glory to Jesus?
    Did Jesus give God's glory to all Christians?
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Isaiah 42:8
    8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.



    John 17:20-22
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


    Did God give His glory to Jesus?
    Did Jesus give God's glory to all Christians?
    No conflict in God giving his glory to Jesus if Jesus speaking on earth is the same LORD speaking in Isaiah. That's even well proven comparing his statements of being the "first and the last" between Isaiah and Revelation.

    Good question about the second, what comes to mind is that it might be a different sense of Glory between the two passages. God will not give his status (of being God) to another, but there are different shades of meaning of glory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    No conflict in God giving his glory to Jesus if Jesus speaking on earth is the same LORD speaking in Isaiah. That's even well proven comparing his statements of being the "first and the last" between Isaiah and Revelation.
    Why would God give His glory to Jesus?
    If Jesus is the same LORD speaking in Isaiah, He already has all the glory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Good question about the second, what comes to mind is that it might be a different sense of Glory between the two passages. God will not give his status (of being God) to another, but there are different shades of meaning of glory.
    I suppose we can always try to find the meaning of glory that supports our beliefs in each passage.

    Equivocation
    The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Why would God give His glory to Jesus?
    If Jesus is the same LORD speaking in Isaiah, He already has all the glory.
    Do you suppose this may be relevant for keeping things in perspective?

    Luke 2:40 KJV
    (40) And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.


    Waxed means to increase; Jesus, being born as an infant, waxed strong in spirit, and wisdom. Why would he need to increase? Because infants, by definition, start at a state where they are unable to process wisdom and higher thought.

    Is it a right assumption that we already agree that Jesus is God? In Revelation he names himself as the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Four separate times in Revelation, for example:

    Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
    (17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
    (18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    But this is a reference to the three previous times he said this to Isaiah, for example:

    Isaiah 44:6 KJV
    (6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.



    So if A = B, and B = C, therefore A = C. Jesus is the LORD of Hosts, he that was speaking in Revelation was the same that spoke in Isaiah.

    I suppose we can always try to find the meaning of glory that supports our beliefs in each passage.

    Equivocation
    The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument.

    Just saying that since we already have a rule that says the scripture does not contradict "the scripture cannot be broken" then we should resolve passages like that in a non-contradictory fashion. When God says he will not give his glory to another, it does not apply if the "another" is really himself, and it does not apply if the "glory" is a different type of glory than the original passage intended.


    Revelation 21:23 KJV
    (23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    That above would be another example where God and Lamb are used in parallel as indicating equivalence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Isaiah 42:8
    8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.



    John 17:20-22
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


    Did God give His glory to Jesus?
    Did Jesus give God's glory to all Christians?
    Jesus is God, duh.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Jesus is God, duh.
    God stated He would not give His glory to another, but Jesus is giving God's glory to us.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    God stated He would not give His glory to another, but Jesus is giving God's glory to us.
    And the short answer I had was that there is THE Glory of God that defines God and is not shared, and there must be glory that can be given and/or shared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Isaiah 42:8
    8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.



    John 17:20-22
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


    Did God give His glory to Jesus?
    Did Jesus give God's glory to all Christians?
    In the New Testament the word translated as "glory" can also be translated as "honor." The same is true in Isaiah. In my opinion it should be "glory" in the Old Testament and "honor" in the New Testament.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    In the New Testament the word translated as "glory" can also be translated as "honor." The same is true in Isaiah. In my opinion it should be "glory" in the Old Testament and "honor" in the New Testament.
    They seem to be closely related in English:

    glory
    ˈɡlrē
    noun
    1. high renown or honor won by notable achievements.
    "to fight and die for the glory of one's nation"
    synonyms: renown, fame, prestige, honor, distinction, kudos, eminence, acclaim, praise; More
    2. magnificence or great beauty.
    "the train has been restored to all its former glory"
    synonyms: magnificence, splendor, resplendence, grandeur, majesty, greatness, nobility; More

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    And the short answer I had was that there is THE Glory of God that defines God and is not shared, and there must be glory that can be given and/or shared.
    If we take a couple of verses out of context, it is easy to make them say something contradictory.

    God won't repent.

    Numbers 23:19
    19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


    God will repent.

    Jeremiah 26:13
    13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    In the New Testament the word translated as "glory" can also be translated as "honor." The same is true in Isaiah. In my opinion it should be "glory" in the Old Testament and "honor" in the New Testament.
    God gave a lot of things to Jesus.

    John 5:26-27
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


    Whether Jesus is God or Jesus is the Son of God, the only way to read the New Testament with understanding is to read it as if Jesus is a man that God has chosen to honor with the highest honors.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    God gave a lot of things to Jesus.

    John 5:26-27
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


    Whether Jesus is God or Jesus is the Son of God, the only way to read the New Testament with understanding is to read it as if Jesus is a man that God has chosen to honor with the highest honors.
    If Jesus was not God then he was a blasphemer. "God" and "Son of God" are not exclusive terms and the Jews recognized that as well...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    If Jesus was not God then he was a blasphemer. "God" and "Son of God" are not exclusive terms and the Jews recognized that as well...
    Jesus was very careful to avoid claiming to be God.
    Jesus was very careful to give God the credit for everything He said and did.

    Can you give a specific example of Jesus blaspheming?
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Jesus was very careful to avoid claiming to be God.
    Jesus was very careful to give God the credit for everything He said and did.

    Can you give a specific example of Jesus blaspheming?
    I can think of several examples of Jesus claiming to be God. I can even recall the Jews recognizing that he claimed to be God. Whether this was blasphemy or not depends on whether he was actually God. So who is the best judge of this? If God judges Jesus to be perfect, he did not blaspheme, and if he claimed to be God without blasphemy, He must be.

    If there is a question of whether Jesus was God there are so many ways that this can be approached. Is this actually a question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I can think of several examples of Jesus claiming to be God.
    There are several examples that can be interpreted as Jesus claiming to be God, but there are no examples where Jesus actually made that claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I can even recall the Jews recognizing that he claimed to be God.
    You seem to be making the same misinterpretation that the Jews made.

    John 10:27-33
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.
    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Whether this was blasphemy or not depends on whether he was actually God.
    Before that, it depends on whether Jesus actually made the claim that He was God or if His words were misinterpreted.

    John 10:34-38
    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    So who is the best judge of this? If God judges Jesus to be perfect, he did not blaspheme, and if he claimed to be God without blasphemy, He must be.
    And if Jesus never actually claimed to be God, there is no blasphemy to judge.

    The only question is what did Jesus mean when He said He and the Father are one.
    Unless you are attempting to read into the statement that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself, the most obvious interpretation is that Jesus was claiming to be of one mind and one spirit with God.

    Philippians 1:27
    27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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