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Thread: Is Calvinism Wrong?

  1. #721
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I know that you're not going to accept what I'm going to say here and I don't want you to think that I'm over simplifying a response to such a lengthy post. I assure you that I am not. I know I normally respond in a point by point manner but it doesn't make sense to do so here because the issue can't be successfully broached by looking at details. It's a paradigm level (i.e. big picture) issue.

    Your post is practically a text-book example of doing precisely what Mid-Acts Dispensationalism specifically allows one not to have to do. I mean, I literally could not have manufactured a more perfect example of just the exact sort of hermaneutics that Mid-Acts Dispensatioopnalism renders unnecessary if I had tried to do it. And I feel like I could do it pretty well if I tried!

    When discussing law vs. grace (or any one of several other doctrinal issues), if you take dispensationalist out of the general Christian population and and set them aside, what you'd be left with, generally speaking, is a Christian population made up of two main groups. One group places their theological emphasis on the Pauline epistles and interprets the rest of the New Testament in light of those letters. The other group does the opposite; they interpret Paul in the light of the rest of the New Testament. The first group will take Paul to mean what he says but are forced to interpret Peter, James and John in order to fit with Paul. The second group does just the exact opposite. They take Jesus and the Twelve to mean what they say while Paul is interpreted accordingly. You are squarely in the later group. Incidentally, most people in both groups are not conscious of doing this. They just think their reading the Bible - thus my difficulty! The power of paradigm is a real doozy!

    It is dispensationalists and Mid-Acts Dispensationalists in particular, that see that both groups have missed the fact that God changed something when He cut Israel off and turned instead to the Gentiles. For us the Bible is far easier to read and understand because I don't have to worry about whether Paul says the opposite of what James said (Rom. 4 vs James 2). There is no need to reconcile the two. They said different things because they were talking to a different set of people under a different set of rules (i.e. a different dispensation). Thus I don't interpret Paul in the light of James and I don't interpret Jesus in light of Paul or any other such thing. I read Jesus' words and take them to mean precisely what they say. I do the same for Peter, James, John and Paul and any other New Testament author.

    Not only do I get to read the text and understand it to mean what it says but this understanding of a new dispensation starting with Paul also just happens to effortlessly resolve all kinds of seemingly unrelated doctrinal issues that have been debated and even fought over in the church for centuries. All because of a super simple idea that the Bible states as plain as day.

    Further, not only are a great many doctrinal debates effortlessly resolved but several other New Testament oddities are explained. Things like the existence of Paul's ministry (i.e. where's the need for a thirteenth apostle?) and why did the Twelve force the believers under their authority to live in a commune and why did Paul refer to the gospel as "my gospel" and why was it necessary for him to explain "his gospel" to the Twelve? All of which (and a few other things) are, once again, resolved intuitively if one simply understands that Paul's ministry (and thus his gospel) was not the same as that of the Twelve.

    Now, whether you accept all of that as true or not, think about what it would mean if it were true. IF what I am claiming here is actually true, what more powerfully eloquent argument could there be for a systematic theology than that?

    I'll let you mull that over and I'll leave you with one additional point...

    If Paul was preaching what you are saying he was preaching in the above post, why would Paul have been accused of teaching people that we can sin that grace may abound?

    Have you ever been accused of preaching anything like that? I have! By you, no less! (In so many words)

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post


    Item one:


    Item Two:

    Although the first statement might have been dismissed as merely careless reading and writing on your part, you were pretty clear the second time around. Do you pay any attention to the words you say? Or does talk about the necessity of love naturally stir up the adversary in you?
    It's actually all careless reading on your part. As well as a total lack of understanding.
    Once again, you presumed the conversations in John was with members of the body of Christ, but you jumped on my answer as being I was not a member of the body of Christ.

    Simply put, your definitions of terms are not mine.

    Repentance, body of Christ, baptism, death, life.....you read you own understanding into whatever I say. That's why I say you are lying about what I've said. Then you turn around and repeat your error as if you hadn't heard.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    I'm hereby announcing that you, and you alone are culpable for any and all misunderstandings. Here's a thought, how about learning how to be civil? You know what that means? Probably not.
    True enough, and Rosen is always the first to lecture others about their attitude and "lack of love".

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    I mean, there was no circumcision before Abraham and after Abraham circumcision was REQUIRED. Now it not only isn't required it's forbiden! Before the flood, there was no law at all. People were simply expected to do right, which they failed at miserably, of course.
    Circumcision was forbidden? Do you live in Germany or Iceland? I'm not sure where it was forbidden otherwise. I can ask about the rest later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Circumcision was forbidden? Do you live in Germany or Iceland? I'm not sure where it was forbidden otherwise. I can ask about the rest later.
    We're talking about the Bible here. Not Germany.

    Gal. 5:1-3KJV

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    We're talking about the Bible here. Not Germany.

    Gal. 5:1-3KJV
    He does not say circumcision is forbidden, he says that with respect to salvation in Christ the circumcision has no affect one way or the other, but what matters is the faith which works by love.

    Galatians 5:6 KJV
    (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


    Whereas circumcision actually is forbidden in Germany and perhaps soon Iceland.
    Spoiler
    Male Circumcision is Not Mutilation, Period. - HuffPost Canada
    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/sheryl...b_1646749.html
    Jul 3, 2012 - A regional court in Cologne, Germany has effectively banned the circumcision of young boys, subject only to medical exception. Such a ...

    Iceland law to outlaw male circumcision sparks row over religious ...
    https://www.theguardian.com/.../icel...uropean-countr...
    Feb 18, 2018 - Iceland is poised to become the first European country to outlaw male circumcision amid signs that the ritual common to both Judaism and ...


  11. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    He does not say circumcision is forbidden, he says that with respect to salvation in Christ the circumcision has no affect one way or the other, but what matters is the faith which works by love.

    Galatians 5:6 KJV
    (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


    Spoiler
    Whereas circumcision actually is forbidden in Germany and perhaps soon Iceland.
    Spoiler
    Male Circumcision is Not Mutilation, Period. - HuffPost Canada
    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/sheryl...b_1646749.html
    Jul 3, 2012 - A regional court in Cologne, Germany has effectively banned the circumcision of young boys, subject only to medical exception. Such a ...

    Iceland law to outlaw male circumcision sparks row over religious ...
    https://www.theguardian.com/.../icel...uropean-countr...
    Feb 18, 2018 - Iceland is poised to become the first European country to outlaw male circumcision amid signs that the ritual common to both Judaism and ...

    Clete can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he was talking about circumcision being forbidden as a means of justification or righteousness. So, rather than skip over the proof text I offered, you might want to whoa up a bit.

    Gal. 5:2-4 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Circumcision was forbidden? Do you live in Germany or Iceland? I'm not sure where it was forbidden otherwise. I can ask about the rest later.
    I'm not the least bit concerned about the laws of any nation or state, I'm talking strictly about the Bible and what is or is not required and/or forbidden in regards to our relationship with God. I'm talking only about what God has required, not man.

    With the exception of the period of time when Israel was wondering in the desert, before Paul came on the scene, circumcision was flat out required - period. He (God) even set out to kill Moses himself because he had failed to circumcise one of his sons (Exodus 4:24-26). Paul teaching otherwise is what the Twelve were so confused about and why God told Paul to go explain this new gospel to the Twelve (Acts 21:15-25). And it isn't that Paul was saying merely that you don't need to be circumcised, he taught that we are not to become circumcised (i.e. as a religious rite - I'm not talking about what parents have done due to cultural norms) and that if we do allow ourselves to be circumcised, we are estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace because circumcision is a symbol of the law and if you take one bite, you have to eat the whole enchilada.

    Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Clete can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he was talking about circumcision being forbidden as a means of justification or righteousness. So, rather than skip over the proof text I offered, you might want to whoa up a bit.

    Gal. 5:2-4 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    He was forbidding it as a religious rite. Many western cultures circumcise their baby boys but it isn't a religious ritual performed by a rabbi or preast, it's something a doctor does so that the kid won't look different than all the other boys in junior high gym class. That isn't what Paul is talking about at all. He is talking about the law. His whole entire ministry is all about salvation by grace through faith APART FROM THE LAW and that is what the entire book of Galatians (likely the earliest Pauline epistle in the New Testament) is about from beginning to end.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    He does not say circumcision is forbidden, he says that with respect to salvation in Christ the circumcision has no affect one way or the other, but what matters is the faith which works by love.

    Galatians 5:6 KJV
    (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


    Whereas circumcision actually is forbidden in Germany and perhaps soon Iceland.
    Spoiler
    Male Circumcision is Not Mutilation, Period. - HuffPost Canada
    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/sheryl...b_1646749.html
    Jul 3, 2012 - A regional court in Cologne, Germany has effectively banned the circumcision of young boys, subject only to medical exception. Such a ...

    Iceland law to outlaw male circumcision sparks row over religious ...
    https://www.theguardian.com/.../icel...uropean-countr...
    Feb 18, 2018 - Iceland is poised to become the first European country to outlaw male circumcision amid signs that the ritual common to both Judaism and ...

    Well, faith working by love is really the exact point, right?

    Paul is making a distinction here between faith working by love instead of by the law. In other words, under the dispensation of Grace, it's not about following the rules. If you refuse to steal your neighbors property because there is a list of rules on your wall that says that you're not allowed too then there is no spiritual profit in that because the work has been done in your flesh. That is, your flesh desires your neighbors property and you have "cut it off". This is why circumcision is a symbol of the law because while one is a physical cutting off of the flesh, the other is a spiritual cutting off of the flesh. When the Dispensation of Grace began, Israel, the nation of the law, was likewise cut off and it is not a mistake that Paul phrases it that way. It all fits perfectly together.

    But that fact that the ten commandments and the rest of the law was nailed to the cross with Christ does not mean that we ought to just run around stealing everything we see so that grace may abound! On the contrary! We, under grace, while no longer having the fear of punishment as a motive that the Law gave, we have the motive of love which is a far more powerful motive.

    "Have we been afraid to really believe God? Have some even been afraid to allow others to really believe Him? We must never forget that “God’s ways are not always man’s ways. To some men constant peril is the only spur to action, and many religions and psychologies are dependent on fear to keep their disciples in line. Fear, too, has a place in Christianity, but God has higher and more effective motivations than fear, and one of these is love. Often fear after a while produces only numbness, but love thrives on love. To promise a man the certainty of his destiny may seem, on the human level, like playing with fire; but this leaves God out of the picture. Those who have the deepest appreciation of grace do not continue in sin. Moreover, fear produces the obedience of slaves; love engenders the obedience of sons.” - J. W. Sanderson, Jr.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  19. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I'm not the least bit concerned about the laws of any nation or state, I'm talking strictly about the Bible and what is or is not required and/or forbidden in regards to our relationship with God. I'm talking only about what God has required, not man.

    With the exception of the period of time when Israel was wondering in the desert, before Paul came on the scene, circumcision was flat out required - period. He (God) even set out to kill Moses himself because he had failed to circumcise one of his sons (Exodus 4:24-26). Paul teaching otherwise is what the Twelve were so confused about and why God told Paul to go explain this new gospel to the Twelve (Acts 21:15-25). And it isn't that Paul was saying merely that you don't need to be circumcised, he taught that we are not to become circumcised (i.e. as a religious rite - I'm not talking about what parents have done due to cultural norms) and that if we do allow ourselves to be circumcised, we are estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace because circumcision is a symbol of the law and if you take one bite, you have to eat the whole enchilada.
    Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Thanks for explaining your meaning. You meant "to pursue the circumcision unto salvation" (in symbolism) rather than a literal "circumcision" which would simply avail nothing. Other than the "this new gospel" phrase (in light grey) your explanation is agreeable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    When the Dispensation of Grace began, Israel, the nation of the law, was likewise cut off and it is not a mistake that Paul phrases it that way. It all fits perfectly together.
    When did the dispensation of grace begin? And please provide the Scriptures which support your view.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    When did the dispensation of grace begin? And please provide the Scriptures which support your view.

    Thanks!
    Genesis 3:21
    And the Lord God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Well, faith working by love is really the exact point, right?
    Spoiler
    Paul is making a distinction here between faith working by love instead of by the law. In other words, under the dispensation of Grace, it's not about following the rules. If you refuse to steal your neighbors property because there is a list of rules on your wall that says that you're not allowed too then there is no spiritual profit in that because the work has been done in your flesh. That is, your flesh desires your neighbors property and you have "cut it off". This is why circumcision is a symbol of the law because while one is a physical cutting off of the flesh, the other is a spiritual cutting off of the flesh. When the Dispensation of Grace began, Israel, the nation of the law, was likewise cut off and it is not a mistake that Paul phrases it that way. It all fits perfectly together.
    But that fact that the ten commandments and the rest of the law was nailed to the cross with Christ does not mean that we ought to just run around stealing everything we see so that grace may abound! On the contrary! We, under grace, while no longer having the fear of punishment as a motive that the Law gave, we have the motive of love which is a far more powerful motive.
    Spoiler
    "Have we been afraid to really believe God? Have some even been afraid to allow others to really believe Him? We must never forget that “God’s ways are not always man’s ways. To some men constant peril is the only spur to action, and many religions and psychologies are dependent on fear to keep their disciples in line. Fear, too, has a place in Christianity, but God has higher and more effective motivations than fear, and one of these is love. Often fear after a while produces only numbness, but love thrives on love. To promise a man the certainty of his destiny may seem, on the human level, like playing with fire; but this leaves God out of the picture. Those who have the deepest appreciation of grace do not continue in sin. Moreover, fear produces the obedience of slaves; love engenders the obedience of sons.” - J. W. Sanderson, Jr.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    1. Faith working by love should be the point: salvation has always been by faith regardless of what specific commands God has given to any people or individual.

    2. Glory doesn't agree that the Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross; she thinks it is something separate and eternal apart from the Law of Moses. Maybe talk with her on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Genesis 3:21
    And the Lord God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.
    No, that is not when the present "dispensation" or "stewardship" began because that stewardship was given to Paul:

    "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you"
    (Eph. 3:2).

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