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Thread: Is Calvinism Wrong?

  1. #16
    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post

    Just for clarification, did you have any source that would indicate that James did not support the statement as claimed?
    I do not.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    There is no but. That is the gospel. Everything else is window dressing.

    Until they deny the gospel, they aren't denying the gospel.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Many people would agree that this is an accurate statement (or at least one accurate statement) of the gospel:

    John 3:14-17 KJV
    (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    The question is whether Calvinism denies that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" or whether it says that "whomever God chose to believe in him should not perish" and as such it might be good to look at the purpose of the gospel.

    Mark 1:14-15 KJV
    (14) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    (15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Again, the difficulty arises where Calvinism says that the sinner cannot repent or believe unless God has selected him from before the beginning of the world. As such, it is not the hearer (or the sinner) that believes and repents, but rather God that believes and repents on behalf of the sinner and imparts this belief and repentance on the person who has no choice in the matter.

    Those passages are normally understood easily enough in their simplest sense. There is a simple call for the sinner to hear the gospel, repent, and proceed in faith and belief, and in so doing he shall be saved by Christ. But with Calvinism in the equation, the sinner can do none of this, God can do this and he has chosen only a few people that are allowed to repent.

    I have a couple (non-Christian) friends who once were speaking of their impression of Christianity. And somehow they had heard about Calvinism as well. Their words (as I can recollect?) "Calvinists are insane" they said. I didn't actually know what Calvinism was at that time, but that still was not a good testimony...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Many people would agree that this is an accurate statement (or at least one accurate statement) of the gospel:

    John 3:14-17 KJV
    (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    The question is whether Calvinism denies that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" or whether it says that "whomever God chose to believe in him should not perish" and as such it might be good to look at the purpose of the gospel.

    Mark 1:14-15 KJV
    (14) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    (15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Again, the difficulty arises where Calvinism says that the sinner cannot repent or believe unless God has selected him from before the beginning of the world. As such, it is not the hearer (or the sinner) that believes and repents, but rather God that believes and repents on behalf of the sinner and imparts this belief and repentance on the person who has no choice in the matter.

    Those passages are normally understood easily enough in their simplest sense. There is a simple call for the sinner to hear the gospel, repent, and proceed in faith and belief, and in so doing he shall be saved by Christ. But with Calvinism in the equation, the sinner can do none of this, God can do this and he has chosen only a few people that are allowed to repent.

    I have a couple (non-Christian) friends who once were speaking of their impression of Christianity. And somehow they had heard about Calvinism as well. Their words (as I can recollect?) "Calvinists are insane" they said. I didn't actually know what Calvinism was at that time, but that still was not a good testimony...
    Neither passage is difficult to understand.
    Read the entire dialogue with Nicodemus and you will see that universal atonement is not what Jesus is declaring, nor is he saying that humans decide their own fate.
    In Mark 1, we see John the Baptist teaching a repentance that is not unto salvation, but is for the Nation of Israel and the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel. Second, those whom God makes alive will also repent and believe...because God will cause them to do so.
    Rosey, these passages are blessings, not difficult. Why do you imagine they are hard for a Reformed Christian to accept? The problem is not with the passages, but instead it is with your misguided interpretation of the passages.

  4. #19
    TOL Subscriber Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Neither passage is difficult to understand.
    Read the entire dialogue with Nicodemus and you will see that universal atonement is not what Jesus is declaring, nor is he saying that humans decide their own fate.
    In Mark 1, we see John the Baptist teaching a repentance that is not unto salvation, but is for the Nation of Israel and the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel. Second, those whom God makes alive will also repent and believe...because God will cause them to do so.
    Rosey, these passages are blessings, not difficult. Why do you imagine they are hard for a Reformed Christian to accept? The problem is not with the passages, but instead it is with your misguided interpretation of the passages.
    Are you back? What a shame.

  5. #20
    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Are you back? What a shame.
    If he can be back and in good behavior then we should welcome him. Besides, I still want to find out which of those two opposing statements of his he will stick by:

    1) That those whom God assigns to unending torment in hell deserve their punishment through renewed and perpetual sinning in that hell,

    2) or that God could destroy all sin for ever by casting all of us into hell right now

    I went to all the trouble of hunting down the links to his post to make in inescapable and he must have got so caught up in other behavior that he didn't have time to decide. I'd like to hear his answer as to which of those two statements he deems is correct, and which one he will say was mistaken.

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    TOL Subscriber Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    If he can be back and in good behavior then we should welcome him.
    Yeah. It looks like he's off to a good start. Ah, just kidding ya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Calvinists teach salvation exclusively by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
    False; they teach salvation selectively "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ"; that's a far cry from exclusively.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Everything else is window dressing.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    They've already barred the window.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    False; they teach salvation selectively "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ"; that's a far cry from exclusively.




    They've already barred the window.

    Right. Selective grace is not grace at all. The word "grace" means God's unmerited favor towards fallen man. Not just some men, but all men. "God so loved the world" not just some of the world, but all of the world.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    It was directed at Calvinists whose doctrine, he said, made God the author of sin. This is, of course, untrue.
    Isn't it the Calvinists who teach that all people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" (Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4)?

    Who else but God can be responsible for that?

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Isn't it the Calvinists who teach that all people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" (Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4)?

    Who else but God can be responsible for that?
    "Wholly inclined" sounds like one of those oxymorons, like "positively uncertain"or "sorta like, literally."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Isn't it the Calvinists who teach that all people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" (Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4)?

    Who else but God can be responsible for that?

    God has taken full responsibility for the sins of man. This is why he sent his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2. It is not our fault that we are sinners, but its our fault if we don't accept Christ as our savior.

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    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
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    Pate

    its our fault if we don't accept Christ as our savior.

    So then you boast that your work of accepting Christ is what saves you.

    But the scriptures say otherwise:


    Eph. 2:8-9

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    Rom. 8:7-8

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Pate

    So then you boast that your work of accepting Christ is what saves you.

    But the scriptures say otherwise:


    Eph. 2:8-9

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    Rom. 8:7-8

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    What types of backwards logic equates assuming fault with oneself as boasting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    What types of backwards logic equates assuming fault with oneself as boasting?
    Doublespeak.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Doublespeak.
    ... (wow)

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