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Thread: Is Calvinism Wrong?

  1. #691
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Now I get to say that your even if your theological reasoning may sound strange to me, if it is producing a good fruit of the Holy Spirit then it isn't isn't so important to argue against. Matthew 21:31, "Whether of them twain did the will of his father?"

    I didn't expect for people to dodge and evade that question... I thought it was an opportunity towards resolution.
    It didn't seem like a question that wanted a direct answer. It seemed rhetorical.


    My point is that it isn't about doing, it's about being. People get so lazer focused on doing this, working on that, trying not to do one thing while making every effort to be disciplined about doing something else. The guy in the pew in front is better than you and you really wish that you bring that reprobate over there along side.... Blah blah blah!

    That isn't what Christianity is about. God is a whole lot more concerned about what He is doing in you than what is being accomplished through you. Sometimes those two things are one and the same but frequently they are not and if one is running around trying trying trying to be better better better, the Holy Spirit can't do His job because they are in His way. God is not interested in HELPING people be better. He is happy to do it for them but He will not partner with their flesh. In fact, this reliance on the flesh is easily the biggest hurtle in the life of a Christian and what God is interested in having happen is for the flesh to be crusified so that our work ends and His begins.

    The fact - the biblical fact - is that you have been crucified with Christ and that it is no longer you who live but Christ lives His life through you, all of which is accomplished by faith and by no other means. That is the only way it works. Before, as in your cited passage from Matthew 21, it was believe and work. That was law but grace says believe and rest. We have been crucified in Christ, executed by the Law. What more does the law have to say to one it has killed? What work can a dead man do? NOTHING! Now it is not OUR fruit but the Holy Spirit's. It is not our work but Christ's. "Not I, but Christ." is Christianity in four syllables.

    Galatians 2: 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  3. #692
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I am a Christian in the Biblical sense.
    What you think is the normal sense of the word does not to appear to be Biblical.
    So says you and only you.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    So says you and only you.
    I have been talking about what the Bible says and what Paul meant when he wrote his letters.
    You attack me because you don't like that it is different from what you have been taught to believe by Dispensationalists.

    I did not reject Dispensationalism for no reason at all.
    I examined the teachings, compared them to the scriptures, and realized that Dispensationalist teaching does not fit in scriptures.
    I thought I may have made a mistake, so I searched some more.
    The more I studied the Bible, the more I saw that Dispensationalist teaching distorted the teachings of Paul.

    You can just close your eyes, stop up your ears, and continue thinking you are something special because you can believe in Dispensationalism.
    Good luck with that.
    It took Divine Intervention to get Paul to stop kicking against the goads.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  6. #694
    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    It didn't seem like a question that wanted a direct answer. It seemed rhetorical.
    No, it wasn't rhetorical at all. Love your neighbor, love your enemies, love one another... those aren't "Legalistic Commands Only for the Jews" like some here have been saying.

    My point is that it isn't about doing, it's about being.
    You can't "be" without "doing" in this sense. That's the meaning of James when he confronts people who use an empty claim of "I have faith" without that faith having any actual existence.

    James 2:18-20 KJV
    (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    (19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    I can understand if someone says "I don't do that perfectly" ... which is why I was careful with the phrasing. If we have faith and belief, that faith and belief will manifest itself. But if we cannot even say that we attempt to practice faith and belief towards God's revealed will, then maybe all this talk about "Jesus spoke to Jews so we can ignore what he said about love thy neighbor" may be doing some serious damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Four yes or no questions were asked. No yes or no answers have been received, either from you, or Glory whom I originally asked. It was a personal question, not dependent on anyone else other than the one answering the question.
    You don't seem to understand that when something is manifest in someone's life, it's those who see that person who can judge. I'm quite sure you think those things are manifest in your life, but I've certainly not witnessed it.

    Put simply, those are stupid questions to ask anyone. Yet, you continue to ask.

    A Pharisee would insist he manifested those things in his life, as I have no doubt YOU would as well. Worse you take credit for doing so proven by your own words...do you attempt.

    I've been walking with the Lord since the early 70's and I've never heard a fellow believer pose such questions to any of his brothers or sisters in the Lord. They all know who does the work....in spite of any "attempts" of ours to outshine the Lord.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You don't seem to understand that when something is manifest in someone's life, it's those who see that person who can judge. I'm quite sure you think those things are manifest in your life, but I've certainly not witnessed it.

    Put simply, those are stupid questions to ask anyone. Yet, you continue to ask.

    A Pharisee would insist he manifested those things in his life, as I have no doubt YOU would as well. Worse you take credit for doing so proven by your own words...do you attempt.

    I've been walking with the Lord since the early 70's and I've never heard a fellow believer pose such questions to any of his brothers or sisters in the Lord. They all know who does the work....in spite of any "attempts" of ours to outshine the Lord.
    Considering you told me multiple times it was wrong for me to presume that you were a brother/sister in Christ and a child of God, I guess it was silly to ask.

  11. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I am beginning to think that someone who refuses to answer "Do you attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love God" and does this change manifest itself in your life" isn't a Christian in the normal sense of the word either.
    Do you attempt to fulfill what Jesus has already accomplished in the believer?

    Clearly, it isn't working out for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Do you attempt to fulfill what Jesus has already accomplished in the believer?

    Clearly, it isn't working out for you.
    We can all tell that "love thy neighbor" has already been accomplished in you as good as it is going to get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Considering you told me multiple times it was wrong for me to presume that you were a brother/sister in Christ and a child of God, I guess it was silly to ask.
    Now your lying is becoming manifest for all to see.

    That's hardly evidence of what you've been claiming.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    We can all tell that "love thy neighbor" has already been accomplished in you as good as it is going to get.


    Yep, you've earned the Hypocrite of the Month award. Congrats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post

    That isn't what Christianity is about. God is a whole lot more concerned about what He is doing in you than what is being accomplished through you. Sometimes those two things are one and the same but frequently they are not and if one is running around trying trying trying to be better better better, the Holy Spirit can't do His job because they are in His way. God is not interested in HELPING people be better. He is happy to do it for them but He will not partner with their flesh. In fact, this reliance on the flesh is easily the biggest hurtle in the life of a Christian and what God is interested in having happen is for the flesh to be crusified so that our work ends and His begins.

    The fact - the biblical fact - is that you have been crucified with Christ and that it is no longer you who live but Christ lives His life through you, all of which is accomplished by faith and by no other means. That is the only way it works. Before, as in your cited passage from Matthew 21, it was believe and work. That was law but grace says believe and rest. We have been crucified in Christ, executed by the Law. What more does the law have to say to one it has killed? What work can a dead man do? NOTHING! Now it is not OUR fruit but the Holy Spirit's. It is not our work but Christ's. "Not I, but Christ." is Christianity in four syllables.


    Clete
    Thank you, Clete. I'm glad to hear you aren't "attempting" to do what only God can do in us.

    (So much for the four magic questions.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    No, it wasn't rhetorical at all. Love your neighbor, love your enemies, love one another... those aren't "Legalistic Commands Only for the Jews" like some here have been saying.
    You can't even get that one little thing right.

    That tells me all I need to know about you. Zero spiritual discernment!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    No, it wasn't rhetorical at all. Love your neighbor, love your enemies, love one another... those aren't "Legalistic Commands Only for the Jews" like some here have been saying.



    You can't "be" without "doing" in this sense. That's the meaning of James when he confronts people who use an empty claim of "I have faith" without that faith having any actual existence.

    James 2:18-20 KJV
    (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    (19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    I can understand if someone says "I don't do that perfectly" ... which is why I was careful with the phrasing. If we have faith and belief, that faith and belief will manifest itself. But if we cannot even say that we attempt to practice faith and belief towards God's revealed will, then maybe all this talk about "Jesus spoke to Jews so we can ignore what he said about love thy neighbor" may be doing some serious damage.
    You don't know the meaning of the word "rest", do you? You certainly do kick against the goads.

    Matthew 11:28
    Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

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  24. #704
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    Spoiler
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Considering you told me multiple times it was wrong for me to presume that you were a brother/sister in Christ and a child of God, I guess it was silly to ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Now your lying is becoming manifest for all to see.

    That's hardly evidence of what you've been claiming.
    Item one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Spoiler

    Common sense tells us that God doesn't give impossible commands. If he bids us to come out and walk on the water, we can therefore walk on water. If he commands us to take up our bed and walk, we can take up our bed and walk. And if he commands us to love one another and to love our enemies, we are capable of loving one another and loving our enemies.

    John 15:12-14 KJV
    (12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
    (13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    (14) Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    So now we are still back to why have you been arguing so hard against the commandment to love one another? I have been presuming that this conversation is between those that are members in the body of Christ, called his children and also his friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You presume that because you aren't looking at the PURPOSE of the Law. The PURPOSE of a commandment. You need to look to Paul. You won't hear it from John.
    Item Two:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I just said that I presumed that this conversation is between members of the body of Christ, and those called his children, and also his friends. I presumed that you were among these. Before stating that my presumption was incorrect, would you like to think carefully before excluding yourself from any of these categories?
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Yes, you presume way too much and all too often.
    Although the first statement might have been dismissed as merely careless reading and writing on your part, you were pretty clear the second time around. Do you pay any attention to the words you say? Or does talk about the necessity of love naturally stir up the adversary in you?

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    ...
    Last edited by Grosnick Marowbe; November 15th, 2018 at 02:52 AM.

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