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    Is Calvinism Wrong?

    Knight suggested that someone should do a thread on this. Here it is.

    Jesus said, "Beware of men" Matthew 10:17. It is from men that false doctrines come. In the case of Calvinism it was John Calvin. All false religions are founded by men and are man centered. The purpose of religion whether it be the Calvinist religion, the Catholic religion, or whatever religion is to lead you away from the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4, into another Gospel, that is not the Gospel, Galatians 1:6-8.

    The Calvinist is not interested in what God has done for him in Jesus Christ. The Calvinist is mainly pre-occupied in whether or not he has been predestinated to eternal life. He will search out the scriptures that he believes will support that he has been predestinated. It is all about him and is very subjective.

    The glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ is not subjective, it is objective (out side of us). We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel. The Gospel took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born, The Gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ has reconciled us and the world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If God has reconciled us and the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, then no one needs to be predestinated. The effects of this Gospel are very subjective when they are embraced and believed upon. All that believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ are given the Holy Spirit and are born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23. The granting of the Holy Spirit is how God honors ones faith in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:13.

    Calvinist, Catholics and other religions do not believe the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are outside of the faith and are under the judgment of God.

    Mod Edit--The over the top lines removed.
    Last edited by Sherman; September 13th, 2018 at 09:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Knight suggested that someone should do a thread on this. Here it is.

    Jesus said, "Beware of men" Matthew 10:17. It is from men that false doctrines come. In the case of Calvinism it was John Calvin. All false religion are founded by men and are man centered. The purpose of religion whether it be the Calvinist religion, the Catholic religion, or whatever religion is to lead you away from the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4, into another Gospel, that is not the Gospel, Galatians 1:6-8.

    The greatest tool that Satan posses is "Subjectiveism". The Calvinist is not interested in what God has done for him in Jesus Christ. The Calvinist is mainly pre-occupied in whether or not he has been predestinated to eternal life. He will search out the scriptures that he believes will support that he has been predestinated. It is all about him and is very subjective. Satan is very happy.

    The glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ is not subjective, it is objective (out side of us). We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel. The Gospel took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born, The Gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ has reconciled us and the world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If God has reconciled us and the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, then no one needs to be predestinated. The effects of this Gospel are very subjective when they are embraced and believed upon. All that believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ are given the Holy Spirit and are born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23. The granting of the Holy Spirit is how God honors ones faith in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:13.

    Calvinist, Catholics and other religions do not believe the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are outside of the faith and are under the judgment of God. They have embraced the doctrine of demons and are lost.
    Calvinists teach salvation exclusively by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

    Everything else is window dressing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Calvinists teach salvation exclusively by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
    Yes, but they deny the Scriptures when they assert that only some people have the ability to believe the gospel.

    The Apostle Paul warned those who received his epistles that there would be people in the local churches who would pervert the Scriptures:

    "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears" (Acts 20:29-31).

    Paul also identified some of the "grievous wolves" who would pervert the Scriptures:

    "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works" (2 Cor.11:14-15).

    In the following passage Paul reveals the method Satan's minions employ in order to pervert the glorious gospel of the grace of God:

    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-5).

    Here we read that those who are perishing had the ability to see the light of the gospel but they were perishing because they were blinded to its light.

    That can only mean that even the unsaved can see the light of the gospel. That means that before anyone can be blinded to its light they must first have the ability to see its light. So all people have the ability to see the light of the gospel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, but...
    There is no but. That is the gospel. Everything else is window dressing.

    Until they deny the gospel, they aren't denying the gospel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    There is no but. That is the gospel. Everything else is window dressing.
    So apart from the gospel everything found in the Bible is nothing but window dressing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So apart from the gospel everything found in the Bible is nothing but window dressing?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So apart from the gospel everything found in the Bible is nothing but window dressing?
    That reminds me of what Hillel said.

    On the "Golden Rule"
    Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." - Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    There is no but. That is the gospel. Everything else is window dressing.

    Until they deny the gospel, they aren't denying the gospel.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Many people would agree that this is an accurate statement (or at least one accurate statement) of the gospel:

    John 3:14-17 KJV
    (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    The question is whether Calvinism denies that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" or whether it says that "whomever God chose to believe in him should not perish" and as such it might be good to look at the purpose of the gospel.

    Mark 1:14-15 KJV
    (14) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    (15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Again, the difficulty arises where Calvinism says that the sinner cannot repent or believe unless God has selected him from before the beginning of the world. As such, it is not the hearer (or the sinner) that believes and repents, but rather God that believes and repents on behalf of the sinner and imparts this belief and repentance on the person who has no choice in the matter.

    Those passages are normally understood easily enough in their simplest sense. There is a simple call for the sinner to hear the gospel, repent, and proceed in faith and belief, and in so doing he shall be saved by Christ. But with Calvinism in the equation, the sinner can do none of this, God can do this and he has chosen only a few people that are allowed to repent.

    I have a couple (non-Christian) friends who once were speaking of their impression of Christianity. And somehow they had heard about Calvinism as well. Their words (as I can recollect?) "Calvinists are insane" they said. I didn't actually know what Calvinism was at that time, but that still was not a good testimony...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Many people would agree that this is an accurate statement (or at least one accurate statement) of the gospel:

    John 3:14-17 KJV
    (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    The question is whether Calvinism denies that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" or whether it says that "whomever God chose to believe in him should not perish" and as such it might be good to look at the purpose of the gospel.

    Mark 1:14-15 KJV
    (14) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    (15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Again, the difficulty arises where Calvinism says that the sinner cannot repent or believe unless God has selected him from before the beginning of the world. As such, it is not the hearer (or the sinner) that believes and repents, but rather God that believes and repents on behalf of the sinner and imparts this belief and repentance on the person who has no choice in the matter.

    Those passages are normally understood easily enough in their simplest sense. There is a simple call for the sinner to hear the gospel, repent, and proceed in faith and belief, and in so doing he shall be saved by Christ. But with Calvinism in the equation, the sinner can do none of this, God can do this and he has chosen only a few people that are allowed to repent.

    I have a couple (non-Christian) friends who once were speaking of their impression of Christianity. And somehow they had heard about Calvinism as well. Their words (as I can recollect?) "Calvinists are insane" they said. I didn't actually know what Calvinism was at that time, but that still was not a good testimony...
    Neither passage is difficult to understand.
    Read the entire dialogue with Nicodemus and you will see that universal atonement is not what Jesus is declaring, nor is he saying that humans decide their own fate.
    In Mark 1, we see John the Baptist teaching a repentance that is not unto salvation, but is for the Nation of Israel and the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel. Second, those whom God makes alive will also repent and believe...because God will cause them to do so.
    Rosey, these passages are blessings, not difficult. Why do you imagine they are hard for a Reformed Christian to accept? The problem is not with the passages, but instead it is with your misguided interpretation of the passages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Many people would agree that this is an accurate statement (or at least one accurate statement) of the gospel:

    John 3:14-17 KJV
    (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    The question is whether Calvinism denies that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" or whether it says that "whomever God chose to believe in him should not perish" and as such it might be good to look at the purpose of the gospel.
    I don't disagree that this is one way the New Testament has of helping us understand our salvation. But, if you are going to cite it, you must be willing to live by it's implications.

    Who had the ability to look upon the serpent? The chosen people of God only. There were other souls in existence during the time of Moses who were given no opportunity to experience this physical salvation and certainly would have died of snakebite. This was a provision for God's people only.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter;5272918Mark 1:14-15 KJV
    (14) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, [B
    preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God[/B],
    (15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Again, the difficulty arises where Calvinism says that the sinner cannot repent or believe unless God has selected him from before the beginning of the world. As such, it is not the hearer (or the sinner) that believes and repents, but rather God that believes and repents on behalf of the sinner and imparts this belief and repentance on the person who has no choice in the matter.
    Here you are assuming that a particular universal theology should be formulated based on your belief that these words were spoken to everyone who has ever lived without keeping them in context. The audience was the people of Galilee as stated. In addition, it is to be understood that not all Galileans heard Him. It only says that He preached in Galilee, not who the "ye" was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Many people would agree that this is an accurate statement (or at least one accurate statement) of the gospel:

    John 3:14-17 KJV
    (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    The question is whether Calvinism denies that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" or whether it says that "whomever God chose to believe in him should not perish" and as such it might be good to look at the purpose of the gospel.
    The Calvinist, or God?
    Romans 9:11,12,15,16,18 Am I 'just an ignorant Calvinist' for reading and "I think" correctly grasping these scriptures? If not, how can ANYONE not be 'a dirty Calvinist' at this point? Scripture is the beginning and ending of such a conversation as this. I really don't care what a fallible human hates or disapproves but rather want to embrace what God has to say over the matter, even if it makes me 'a dirty Calvinist.' I don't care what vitriol is said of me if I am embracing scripture. I'd hope such a thread as this always and ever is concerned AND embracing scriptures but that seldom happens. Romans 9 is quickly waved away imho, with no honest wrestling. I rarely have seen anyone willing to go the distance with Romans 9 and other scriptures. I post them, Open Theists and others (for the most part) quickly gloss over them and forget them as if they do not exist. I OFTEN hear 'a nation, not individuals' BUT the illustration is SPECIFICALLY individuals in EVERY case in Romans 9.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Mark 1:14-15 KJV
    (14) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    (15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Again, the difficulty arises where Calvinism says that the sinner cannot repent or believe unless God has selected him from before the beginning of the world. As such, it is not the hearer (or the sinner) that believes and repents, but rather God that believes and repents on behalf of the sinner and imparts this belief and repentance on the person who has no choice in the matter.

    Those passages are normally understood easily enough in their simplest sense. There is a simple call for the sinner to hear the gospel, repent, and proceed in faith and belief, and in so doing he shall be saved by Christ. But with Calvinism in the equation, the sinner can do none of this, God can do this and he has chosen only a few people that are allowed to repent.

    I have a couple (non-Christian) friends who once were speaking of their impression of Christianity. And somehow they had heard about Calvinism as well. Their words (as I can recollect?) "Calvinists are insane" they said. I didn't actually know what Calvinism was at that time, but that still was not a good testimony...
    To me? Doesn't matter and is beyond the need. No nonCalvinist, for example, should be bringing up 'Calvinism' in their presentation of the gospel. It'd be akin to trying to get someone to become an Open Theist WHILE they are in need of Salvation. If an Open Theist preaches a Gospel that must/necessarily involve Open Theism in the presentation, they are complicating something. I do not mention Calvinism when sharing Christ with another person. I'm in agreement with Stripe at the beginning of this thread that we need to share scriptures, not 'our thoughts/interpretation about them' when talking to another of Christ's work. Christ saves, we do not. "How" Christ saves may be a theology idea in our minds we disagree upon, but that is Christ's business as well. I don't need to tell a nonCalvinist how to think and live. Such is also God's business, but I will explain whatever God is leading any nonCalvinist to ask. Argue about? Simply looking at Romans 9 and other passages. Scriptures, not your or my 'ideas' are the important thing. They will be the maker and molder of our theology else we are just winging it. Doctrine should be near and dear to us, but if you have a biblical discussion and biblical counterpoint: I'm interested. Hopefully you too are open to biblical data that may challenge your view. There is nothing fruitful in denying Romans 9 nor quickly dismissing or waving away its content. The message therein, as far as my good and faithful mind grasps and understands, is indeed aligned with is termed Calvinism. Proverbs 16:9 Psalm 37:23; 40:2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, but they deny the Scriptures when they assert that only some people have the ability to believe the gospel.
    How does this not imply that no one has ever sinned the unforgivable sin? And if no one is unforgiven, why was it mentioned as if the Pharisees had just indeed sinned the unforgivable sin?

    Or do we consider that those who are unforgivable do have the ability to believe the gospel and so can be forgiven after all if GOD would only quit playing such hard ball? I'm curious too how the doctrine that everyone has the ability to believe the gospel relates to those CONDEMNED ALREADY in Jn 3:18, ie, at conception? at birth? at the time of hearing the gospel? at the time the gospel was proclaimed and written?

    In other words, when did "already" start or happen and if they can believe the gospel unto salvation, why are they not given the gift of faith?

    To me, if someone is in hell for eternity it can only be because they cannot be forgiven, they cannot ever believe / accept the gospel and their fate was firmly sealed when they chose to sin the unforgivable sin.

    Anyone able to be forgiven will be forgiven.
    No one who CAN believe unto faith will be left in unfaith and therefore be damned.
    No one!
    One person in the lake of fire ends all this speculation about everyone being able to believe unto faith.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-5).

    Here we read that those who are perishing had the ability to see the light of the gospel but they were perishing because they were blinded to its light.

    That can only mean that even the unsaved can see the light of the gospel. That means that before anyone can be blinded to its light they must first have the ability to see its light. So all people have the ability to see the light of the gospel.
    Please consider that the METHOD of the god of this age USED to blind the minds of unbelievers was by his assertion and proclamation AT HIS FALL that YHWH was a false god and a liar, and as the first liar in all of reality, then HE must be the most sinful person in reality, which is the the unforgivable sin.

    When those in their innocence (ie, before being born in sin), who had an equal ability and opportunity to believe by faith and accept by their free will YHWH as their GOD and HIS Son as their saviour OR to reject HIM by their free will as a false god and his promises of salvation as a false hope because there was no such thing as sin...some followed Satan and rejected YHWH as their GOD.

    You are quite right that to be blinded to the truth means they must have had the ability to accept the truth but once they rejected the gospel truth they become enslaved by evil, unable to ever choose truth again and became locked into self made chains of darkness, ie the inability to believe the truth forever. Since they are enslaved to sin at birth this cannot have happened in this human life as I continually assert, but must have happened before we were sinful humans while still in our innocence.

    Neither can sinners (and all are born sinners) ever have the truth and understand the truth AND BE ABLE TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH yet not be given the gift of faith and reject the truth unto damnation as this would be contrary to HIS loving righteousness which wants no man to be condemned.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Calvinists teach salvation exclusively by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

    Correct.

    But in order to Hear God's Words which are Spiritual 1 Cor 2:13, the prerequisite is that men must be Born of the Spirit of God.

    Jesus said:

    John 8:43, 47

    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


    You see, the Created thing has no say in the matter of what he is spiritually capable of hearing or seeing, but is totally dependent upon God's intervention.

    Prov. 20:12
    The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

    God makes the Spiritual ear for Hearing, and the Spiritual eye for Seeing !

    Thus the only Faith that pleases God is a Fruit of the Spirit Given in New Birth Gal. 5:22, because we know from what Paul preached, that those in the flesh [not Born of the Spirit] cannot please God Rom. 8:8 !

    Also, God's Grace was not given to all mankind without exception, but only to His Elect Eph. 1:4-7 according to His Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11 before the world began 2 Tim. 1:9 !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Last edited by Grosnick Marowbe; November 15th, 2018 at 03:42 AM.

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Grosnick Marowbe For Your Post:

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