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Thread: Are babies going to populate "hell"?

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No, he is speaking of the state after physical death and before putting on an heavenly body.

    What body do you think that a Christian who died hundreds of years ago has on now?
    Psa 146:2-4 KJV
    (2) While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
    (3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
    (4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    They have no thoughts or being, they will have thought and being when they are raised from the dead. They shall be clothed upon, but never found naked.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Oh.
    Thank you for the clarification.
    Glory has heart but I think her eyes glaze over with misty tears so she may not see as clearly when she worries about children.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    When I declared that elect babies go to heaven and reprobate babies go to Sheol on death, (which no one saw fit to exegete and correct me upon), I was speaking of babies only from the point of view of a foetus or infant as presented in a human form.

    Such new humans are called babies so they are "babies" when Christ and the devil sow them into the world as Matt 13: 36-39 tells us they do (again, no exegesis is offered to explain my error) which can't refer to our creation as the devil can't create. BUT, since every person created in HIS image was created at the same time (at least 6000 years ago) sinners born into the world as a 'baby' are NOT new creations but are a 6000 year old sinners well addicted to evil and only his / her body is new.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  4. #94
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    So you think something is wrong, eh? But won't tell me what you think these verses really mean in case you can 't? Maybe get your friends [Arthur Brain, Grosnick Marowbe, JudgeRightly] to chip in; they are so supportive as long as it is only scorn they have to give and not exegesis.

    I'm curious how these plain words must be distorted to become what you claim they mean...if you even bother with a claim.
    I believe they are quite plain words. Here we have a woman who had never been pregnant. One baby is active enough....I was sure my son was playing football in there and had broken a rib. Can you imagine what twins would be like? They had no ultrasound back in those days.

    Gen. 25:21 And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.

    Two babies moving around in the womb. They were not ripping each other apart or doing anything else that was abnormal. One was probably stronger, as twins often are.

    Gen. 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord. 23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

    BEHOLD...there were twins.

    Gen. 25:24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.

    It was merely an opportunity for a prophecy concerning how two brothers interacted and became two heads of nations. Esau is Edom. Genesis 36:1

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Glory has heart but I think her eyes glaze over with misty tears so she may not see as clearly when she worries about children.
    Right, I'm the only believer who believes children go to be with the Lord when they die.

    You do know that soul sleep is a cult belief, don't you? Not that I'd dare to suggest you belonged to a cult...you might have yourself a little hissy fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Oh.
    Thank you for the clarification.
    She's wrong and you call it clarification?

    Not good GO.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Right, I'm the only believer who believes children go to be with the Lord when they die.

    You do know that soul sleep is a cult belief, don't you? Not that I'd dare to suggest you belonged to a cult...you might have yourself a little hissy fit.
    I take back what I said about heart, you still have more than enough venom in your serpent fangs.

  11. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    When I declared that elect babies go to heaven and reprobate babies go to Sheol on death, (which no one saw fit to exegete and correct me upon), I was speaking of babies only from the point of view of a foetus or infant as presented in a human form. Such new humans are called babies so when Christ and the devil sow them into the world as Matt 13: 36-39 tells us they do (again, no exegesis is offered to explain my error) which can't refer to our creation as the devil can't create.
    Two parables back to back that refer to sowing seed into a field.

    Matthew 13:18-19,23
    18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
    19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
    23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.



    Matthew 13:37-38
    37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


    The people that received seed into the good ground in the first parable are those that hear the word of the kingdom and understand it, these are the children of the kingdom in the second parable.
    The people that received seed by the way side in the first parable are those that have the word of the kingdom taken away by the wicked one, these are the children of the wicked one in the second parable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    BUT, since every person created in HIS image was created at the same time (at least 6000 years ago) so sinners born into the world as a 'baby' is NOT new creation but is a 6000 year old sinner well addicted to evil and only his / her body is new.
    That is foolishness that is not supported by the Bible anywhere.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  12. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    She's
    Rosenritter's avatar looks like a male to me.
    (I watch a lot of anime. )
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    What about a baby's ability to grow up and turn to the Lord?
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Where did you get the idea that a dead baby has the ability to grow up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I think she means that if one were to spare the life of the child
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Thank you for the clarification.
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    She's wrong and you call it clarification?
    Are you saying you believe dead babies can grow up (my original statement) or are you saying that babies can grow up if you spare their life (Rosenritter's clarification)?
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    That's taken completely into consideration. If you understand love, you understand that true love is when one is willing to sacrifice his life for another. "Scarcely for a righteous man will one die" (Romans 5:7) yet we are given an example of Christ who laid down his life for us. Now look at Moses, who was willing to have his name blotted out of the book of life if it might save the children of Israel:

    Spoiler
    Exodus 32:31-32 KJV
    (31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
    (32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

    "Yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die..." (Romans 5:7) and if someone really did care about the eternal fate of hundreds of children, and if they understood the sacrifice of Christ that gave his life for many, why wouldn't they take whatever punishment God might deliver upon them if it would save the souls of hundreds?

    The scriptural account against murder was considered. The question that remains is twofold: first, does she really believe what she said? and second, does she love these unknown children enough to lay down her life for theirs and receive punishment in their place, her life for many?

    The absurdity arises because the "babies go to heaven if they die" theory places man in the position to be a replacement savior for Jesus, where man is able to force God to save by circumstance where God otherwise would not, and the second absurdity where murder grants eternal life. Infant salvation is a totally false doctrine as thus demonstrated.

    If you want to show it true somehow, you have to remove the demonstrated problem. Assume that I were to both BELIEVE Glory's doctrine and be willing to LAY DOWN MY OWN LIFE to save a thousand unborn children. It is reasonable to assume at least 10 of those unborn would be damned and forever tortured should they be allowed to grow up, at least under your belief.

    So answer this: if they are murdered in infancy, do they suddenly NOT go to heaven, just because they were killed by someone with the intent of saving their souls? If ten of those children would "go to hell" if allowed to mature, how many "go to hell" if they are killed instead? Answer the numbers please.
    You're thinking like a humanist here.

    The book of life refers to the death of the body...not the spirit or the soul. Not the inner man at all, but the outer man.



    The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Children have no sin. They didn't inherit sin from Adam, as the Calvinists claim. Sin is accounted to those who choose evil over good.

    Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

    Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    Deuteronomy 1:39 - Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    James 4:17 - Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

    Matthew 19:14 - But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

    Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

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  15. #101
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Rosenritter's avatar looks like a male to me.
    (I watch a lot of anime. )






    Are you saying you believe dead babies can grow up (my original statement) or are you saying that babies can grow up if you spare their life (Rosenritter's clarification)?
    I'm saying neither of those things. We're talking about babies who die before they are old enough to choose evil over good. Are we not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I take back what I said about heart, you still have more than enough venom in your serpent fangs.
    And you can dish it out, but can't take it.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Glory has heart but I think her eyes glaze over with misty tears so she may not see as clearly when she worries about children.
    I do have a heart, and I do believe that the God is righteous, and just and full of mercy.

    And there is more in Scripture to support my view on this than yours.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You're thinking like a humanist here.

    The book of life refers to the death of the body...not the spirit or the soul. Not the inner man at all, but the outer man.
    Rev 3:5 KJV
    (5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Rev 13:8 KJV
    (8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Rev 20:12-15 KJV
    (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Rev 21:27 KJV
    (27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    Really Glory? Hell fire destroys body and soul. Those who have been blotted out of the Lamb's book of life are cast into hell fire. When Jesus says that hell fire destroys body and soul, why do you say it doesn't?

    Mat 10:28 KJV
    (28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    And you can dish it out, but can't take it.
    Yep, that will teach me not to say something nice about you in the future.

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