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Thread: Are babies going to populate "hell"?

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Those in the Body of Christ who have already died physically are with the Lord Jesus now because they will be with Him when He descends from heaven and meets the living saints in the air:
    "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thess.4:13-14).
    Paul has already clearly stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and that we remain flesh and blood, corruption, until we are changed at Christ's return. He does not say that those who are perished are with the Lord currently, but that the Thessalonians may hope to see their departed loved ones upon Christ's return, and not before. Should Paul have had any notion that their dead were currently happy and alive with Jesus currently, it is awfully strange that he should say nothing of the sort, and instead give them an entirely different comfort.

    Jesus first raises the resurrected saints to meet him in the air, and then descends to meet the saints as they are changed and rise to meet them. This is made obvious already as Paul says that those dead are currently asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post

    Act 2:29-35 KJV
    (29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


    Joh 3:13 KJV
    (13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    The first verse refers to David's body. Re the second verse, people who died before Christ's resurrection went to Hades' torments or Abraham's bosom/paradise (Lk.16:19-31), not heaven. For more Scriptures refuting soul sleep see the thread about soul sleep:

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...tural-doctrine

    See also the King James a homo thread:

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...y-a-homosexual
    Last edited by GregoryN; September 11th, 2018 at 10:48 PM.

  3. #78
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Paul has already clearly stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and that we remain flesh and blood, corruption, until we are changed at Christ's return.
    Paul speaks of three states of believers in regard to their bodies--the present flesh and blood body, being naked (being without a body) and with a body which is from heaven:

    "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:1-4).

    At the rapture those who have already died physically will be with the Lord without bodies when He descends from heaven and they will put on new bodies just like the body of the Lord Jesus before the living saints will also put on glorious bodies:

    "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess.4:13-17).

    Paul says that the ones who are already dead physically will be brought with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven so they must be with the Lord Jesus in heaven. And that matches what Paul said here:

    "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"
    (2 Cor.5:8).

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Paul speaks of three states of believers in regard to their bodies--the present flesh and blood body, being naked (being without a body) and with a body which is from heaven:
    Paul speaks of two states, both bodily. The present flesh and blood body is our current state, and our spiritual body from heaven is our second state. "Naked" or "unclothed" is not an applicable state, and no where does Paul say that we shall ever be found (or aware) in such a state. It's like using zero as a placeholder, it doesn't represent anything, or more accurately, it represents the lack of anything.

    At the rapture those who have already died physically will be with the Lord without bodies when He descends from heaven ...
    What part of "we shall not be found naked" did you not understand? You just defined naked as "without bodies" and in spite of Paul's objection twice stated to the contrary, you made up your own interpretation that we will be found without bodies.

    Paul says that the ones who are already dead physically will be brought with the Lord Jesus when He descends from heaven so they must be with the Lord Jesus in heaven. And that matches what Paul said here:

    "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"
    (2 Cor.5:8).
    Of which that passage says nothing to collaborate what you just claimed, as it is just as compatible with the previously stated truths that the dead have no awareness or being in death. The believer perishes and is arisen in his next thought, and though ages past, it is as Paul also said, that concerning the saints that have already gone before and perished, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Heb 11:39-40 KJV
    (39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Augustine believed re the pains of endless hell that those "of children dying unbaptized will be 'most mild of all'; but for all the chastisement will be eternal" (p.485).
    Augustine is a heretic who brought a lot of false doctrines into Christianity.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    What, do foetuses jostle around too much?
    So "trying to crush each other to pieces" means to jostle in all good fun to you. Very good, now I know. Carry on...good luck with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    By that same interpretation, an unbelieving wife would go to heaven if she dies while her believing husband is still alive, no judgment, good or bad.
    The husband has a lot of responsibility for the consequences for the things the wife does.

    Numbers 30:10-14
    10 And if she vowed in her husband's house, or bound her soul by a bond with an oath;
    11 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her, and disallowed her not: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
    12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the Lord shall forgive her.
    13 Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.
    14 But if her husband altogether hold his peace at her from day to day; then he establisheth all her vows, or all her bonds, which are upon her: he confirmeth them, because he held his peace at her in the day that he heard them.

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    What about a baby's ability to grow up and turn to the Lord?
    Where did you get the idea that a dead baby has the ability to grow up?
    Learn to read what is written.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Paul speaks of two states, both bodily. The present flesh and blood body is our current state, and our spiritual body from heaven is our second state. "Naked" or "unclothed" is not an applicable state, and no where does Paul say that we shall ever be found (or aware) in such a state. It's like using zero as a placeholder, it doesn't represent anything, or more accurately, it represents the lack of anything.
    Then why does Paul speak of the possibility of being found "naked"?

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Then why does Paul speak of the possibility of being found "naked"?
    He doesn't speak of a possibility, he speaks of such as being an impossibility.

    2Co 5:3 KJV
    (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    It would seem that he is specifically dispelling any notions that some might have imagined that we would be without a body: thus he says we have our body now, and we will have our spiritual body then, but we shall not be found naked.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Ya got the makings of a movie there, son.
    So you think something is wrong, eh? But won't tell me what you think these verses really mean in case you can 't? Maybe get your friends [Arthur Brain, Grosnick Marowbe, JudgeRightly] to chip in; they are so supportive as long as it is only scorn they have to give and not exegesis.

    I'm curious how these plain words must be distorted to become what you claim they mean...if you even bother with a claim.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    My car is oil, metal, and fire, but it doesn't mean that any of it functions when the portions are dissolved from each other either.
    A human being is not a car.


    Did you notice whose spirit that belongs to? It isn't an individual spirit, it belongs to God who gave it. Just as in Genesis, where breath plus dust equals man. Yet in that same passage he told Adam he was dust. The spirit only gave Adam life. God takes back his own spirit which is the life.
    Except Paul makes it clear the body, soul, and spirit are our own.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I think you're confusing man's spirit with the breath of life. There is a difference.


    Unless you are trying to use Ecclesiastes to say that all people go to heaven on death? Because it makes no distinction between good and evil there.
    Even evil people are composed of body, soul, and spirit. I'm not trying to use Ecclesiastes for anything more than I've already said. God's record of man's arguments.



    Here's a counter-clue: "under the sun" is a metaphor, it isn't actually about a literal sun or the daytime.
    It's actually about what is observable by man. Just as men can do no more to us than kill the body.

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    He doesn't speak of a possibility, he speaks of such as being an impossibility.

    2Co 5:3 KJV
    (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    It would seem that he is specifically dispelling any notions that some might have imagined that we would be without a body: thus he says we have our body now, and we will have our spiritual body then, but we shall not be found naked.
    No, he is speaking of the state after physical death and before putting on an heavenly body.

    What body do you think that a Christian who died hundreds of years ago has on now?

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Where did you get the idea that a dead baby has the ability to grow up?
    I think she means that if one were to spare the life of the child, it might turn to God of its own will. The problem is that we know realistically that many do not, even the majority do not. Would you gamble the life of your child on a lucky die roll? If not for its life, what about its eternal life? Thus, if I were to truly believe as Glory says she does, I would have to murder the lives of the children I loved.

    This obvious problem in "babies go to heaven" isn't going to go away by ignoring it. It is evidence that the whole doctrine and premise is fatally flawed. We say Calvinism is flawed when its proofs resort to circular logic, but "babies go to heaven" has far worse potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I think she means that if one were to spare the life of the child, it might turn to God of its own will. The problem is that we know realistically that many do not, even the majority do not. Would you gamble the life of your child on a lucky die roll? If not for its life, what about its eternal life? Thus, if I were to truly believe as Glory says she does, I would have to murder the lives of the children I loved.

    This obvious problem in "babies go to heaven" isn't going to go away by ignoring it. It is evidence that the whole doctrine and premise is fatally flawed. We say Calvinism is flawed when its proofs resort to circular logic, but "babies go to heaven" has far worse potential.
    Oh.
    Thank you for the clarification.
    Learn to read what is written.

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