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Thread: Are babies going to populate "hell"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    that works for me
    Accept that we don't and can't know everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    There's a serious flaw apparent in that "babies go to heaven" premise if anyone stops to think what it would really mean to act in faith if that were really to be believed.

    Because if you really believe that "babies go to heaven" but they might not (and probably will not) if they mature, then you should be pro-abortion and try to kill as many of these children as possible before they can grow up and be destined for hell.
    "If" it were granted to men to take lives. There is still that. A good many Christians believe children go to heaven, but with conviction? There are still a good many variables before we could ever get to your conclusion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    Hell is an ancient Jewish concept, while "no children in hell" walks hand in hand with this concept. So "we don't know" may be a more suitable answer in terms of how the children will be handled.

    It is natural that immature humans are not subject to judgment, while our New Covenant is only available to those who has a will to choose. Babies don't have a full capability to make such a choice. Children thus can't be judged until they are capable of choosing the New Covenant.
    The Old Testament biblical concept of hell is a place of silence where the infant of days and the slave and the master and the ruler alike go down into silence, no longer in trouble, at rest. While there may be all sorts of various folk lore from sources outside the Bible (and the Jews were subject to pagan influences throughout their history) the scripture should be our standard of truth, rather than cultural traditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I am arguing infants who die will not find themselves in hell!
    Agreed. No one finds themselves in hell, as we're told straight up that the dead aren't capable of knowledge that they are dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    that works for me
    We aren't told how anyone particular age or cultural or ethnic group are handled. We are told what happens with the saints of God, and then we are told that the rest of the dead will be judged, those who are written in the book of life into life, and those who are not in the book of life to be destroyed.

    Psa 51:5 KJV
    (5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    No one is born with the right to eternal life, and any doctrine that a particular race or skin color or sex or age has the right of salvation is in error. There's only one individual that I know of that we are told the specific results of his judgment in advance (Ezekiel 28:12-19, Isaiah 14:4-24, Revelation 20:10). Everyone else hasn't yet stood in the judgment. We aren't told their result because God himself hasn't judged them yet, and as such we shouldn't speak for God concerning any individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    The Old Testament biblical concept of hell is a place of silence where the infant of days and the slave and the master and the ruler alike go down into silence, no longer in trouble, at rest. While there may be all sorts of various folk lore from sources outside the Bible (and the Jews were subject to pagan influences throughout their history) the scripture should be our standard of truth, rather than cultural traditions.
    No. The hell concept back in Jesus' days is a Pharisaic concept which Jesus Himself never tried to correct but making use of it in His teachings and parables instead.

    Josephus (the Pharisee) tried to explain what hell is to the Greeks.

    An Extract Out of Josephus’ Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades:
    1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.
    2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment...

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    NO!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    No. The hell concept back in Jesus' days is a Pharisaic concept which Jesus Himself never tried to correct but making use of it in His teachings and parables instead.

    Josephus (the Pharisee) tried to explain what hell is to the Greeks.

    An Extract Out of Josephus’ Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades:
    1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.
    2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment...
    1. Josephus was not a Christian, Josephus is not inspired nor inerrant, and is only useful for confirming what constitutes Jewish belief, which may be any mixture of fable and truth

    2. Regardless of anyone's own ideas or mythologies or folk tales, scripture takes precedence over Jewish fables (Titus 1:14)

    3. The only time Jesus did borrow a non-Jewish perspective was for the setting of a parable that even mocked the concept and blended multiple scenarios together, a parable for the purpose of condemning the Pharisees and foreshadowing the acceptance of the Gentile in their place, not as a contradiction of all previous scripture.

    4. All instances of Christ's teaching concerning death and hell was consistent with death being as a sleep, and the judgment of hell fire being a place that burned up the wicked, in agreement with all other scriptures that tells us that the wicked are reduced to ash and shall be no more.

    Regardless, you wouldn't have these absurd problems such as "do babies go to hell" and its inevitable corollary "abort as many babies as you can to send them to heaven" if you stuck with the Biblical teaching in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Agreed. No one finds themselves in hell, as we're told straight up that the dead aren't capable of knowledge that they are dead.
    Could you cite that "straight up" scripture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    There's a serious flaw apparent in that "babies go to heaven" premise if anyone stops to think what it would really mean to act in faith if that were really to be believed.

    Because if you really believe that "babies go to heaven" but they might not (and probably will not) if they mature, then you should be pro-abortion and try to kill as many of these children as possible before they can grow up and be destined for hell.
    What about a baby's ability to grow up and turn to the Lord?

    I don't think your argument there holds water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    1. Josephus was not a Christian, Josephus is not inspired nor inerrant, and is only useful for confirming what constitutes Jewish belief, which may be any mixture of fable and truth
    I didn't even remotely said he is. He's a Pharisee however. What I said is the hell concept back then. It's nothing do with Christians and whatsoever as back then there is no formally Christians (i.e., the Jewish concept before Christianity).

    What I said that it's historically so which Jesus Himself never tried to correct but using it in His teachings and parables instead.

    Luke 12:5 (NIV2011)
    But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Could you cite that "straight up" scripture?
    Ecc 9:4-6 KJV
    (4) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
    (5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    (6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Other passages also establish that the infant and the servant and master alike find peace in death and refuge from torment, that only the living (and not the dead) have being, that the dead cannot praise God. Old and New Testaments alike refer to death as sleep. Other descriptions include adjectives such as darkness and silence. And Old and New Testaments both confirm that man dies and is destroyed the same as the beast. Considering God defined death in the first couple chapters of Genesis as returning to the dust, stating that we are dust (not some non-essential portion of us, but actually us) this shouldn't be controversial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    I didn't even remotely said he is. He's a Pharisee however. What I said is the hell concept back then. It's nothing do with Christians and whatsoever as back then there is no formally an Christians.

    What I said that it's historically so which Jesus Himself never tried to correct but using it in His teachings and parables instead.
    Christ's statements should be interpreted understanding an assumed knowledge of scripture, not an assumed foundation of Jewish fable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Christ's statements should be interpreted understanding an assumed knowledge of scripture, not an assumed foundation of Jewish fable.
    Luke 12:5 (NIV2011)
    But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

    In contrary, if you have no knowledge about Jewish customs and early Jewish concepts, you have no way to correctly interpret the verses.Even early church fathers (Christians so they are) reckon the validity of those concepts.

    http://coldcasechristianity.com/2018...ve-about-hell/


    There is a continuity of such a concept from the Jews till our early church fathers. Jesus never denied or corrected such a concept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    What about a baby's ability to grow up and turn to the Lord?

    I don't think your argument there holds water.
    Glorydaz, what are the statistical numbers of children that grow up and turn to the Lord? Of course that is a rhetorical question (for who can judge but God) but would you say it is safe to say it is less than 100%? Do you even feel confident in suggesting that it is likely greater than 50%? And let's not even talk in your hometown, let's consider Muslim countries as well. Are we even so optimistic to say 10%?

    If your answer was anything less than 100% (meaning you are not a Universalist) then if "babies always go to heaven" is to be believed (AKA "Infant Universalism") then murdering the infant child is the supreme act of love. Slay 1000 infants in the abortion clinic and all 1000 go to heaven, save their lives and likely half of them or more will be destroyed (or tortured without end?) as wicked.

    If eternal life was merely about being "innocent" then dumb sheep and puppies and bunnies would go to heaven, having no concept of sin nor ability to sin. Humanity is not innocent, death was pronounced on Adam and all his seed, regardless of age. Not having sinned yet is a matter of not yet having opportunity, and "Infant Universalism" is just another form of "Universalism" and another false way to God other than salvation by Jesus Christ.

    I don't have the problem presented by "babies go to heaven" because I believe (as the Bible tells me) that the day is coming when the dead shall hear his voice and rise in the Judgment, and all shall stand before our God and Christ. I trust our God and Christ in that judgment, and should any and all of us in this forum.

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