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Thread: Are babies going to populate "hell"?

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Augustine believed re the pains of endless hell that those "of children dying unbaptized will be 'most mild of all'; but for all the chastisement will be eternal" (p.485).
    Augustine and Calvin were both wrong... Elect babies return to heaven where they came from and non-eect babies return to Sheol from where they came from, Psalm 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol...
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Then you have no understanding of the purpose of the Bible. It is NOT to convince those condemned already as proof of HIS reality but to help focus the truth for those called by HIS Spirit to be redeemed. The Bible's answer is perfectly consistent with itself. It is men's misunderstandings that cause the inconsistencies which are allowed so as to separate the sheep, those who can hear His voice, from the goats, those who are condemned already who cannot hear His voice.
    In other words Jonah, it's only the "elect" who have a "divine phone line" and everyone else has static. Oh, the joys of doctrines...
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Augustine and Calvin were both wrong... Elect babies return to heaven where they came from and non-eect babies return to Sheol from where they came from, Psalm 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol...
    Babies can be wicked? What, do they cry too much or something?

    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    In other words Jonah, it's only the "elect" who have a "divine phone line" and everyone else has static. Oh, the joys of doctrines...
    if you don't like them, feel free not to follow them

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Babies can be wicked? What, do they cry too much or something?
    <sarcasm ignored>

    Genesis 25:22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said,"Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.

    The babies, Jacob and Esau struggled, jostled or wrestled within her...all words chosen by the Bible interpreters to hide and deny their sinfulness that is implicit in the word they reject, Strong's Concordance: ratsats: to crush to pieces. In this verse the Hithpoel form means to crush each other to pieces, that is, they were trying to murder each other in the womb! Of course, all orthodoxy which denies any life before the womb MUST deny that they had a life before the womb in which they became evil by their own free will decision ye GOD told their mother that they were fighting over the rights to primogeniture, ie the oldest would inherit everything, a fact that is glossed over with barley a glance so strong is the created on earth theory of our creation.

    So this one story tells us that not only was at least one of the being evil, (one might have been fighting back yet remaining faithful to YHWH but I suspect both were being evil), proving that the foetus in the womb can indeed be evil BUT ALSO that they knew stuff that a foetus cannot have known unless they had learned it before they were conceived, ie sown Matt 13:36-39, while in Sheol before the creation of the physical unverse.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Augustine believed re the pains of endless hell that those "of children dying unbaptized will be 'most mild of all'; but for all the chastisement will be eternal" (p.485).

    (J.N.D. Kelly, "Early Christian Doctrines")

    Or will such children all be forced by Calvinistic irresistible grace into heaven, without being allowed to make a freewill choice for or against Christ? Are they the lucky lottery winners over those in "hell" who weren't so lucky as to die in infancy? Salvation is, then, just a matter of pure 100% luck. And the Sovereign Omnipotent God Who is Love is the lucky lotto winner dispenser. If He loves you, you win the lotto. If not, too bad, he decided to let you fry alive forever. And if He chose you to die in infancy & therefore win the lotto, He doesn't care about your freewill. You'll be forced like a robot or puppet to do His will.
    Why do you despise God's grace and require human choice instead?
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...23&version=ESV
    2 Samuel 12:16-23 English Standard Version (ESV)
    16 David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” 20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    <sarcasm ignored>

    Genesis 25:22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said,"Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.

    The babies, Jacob and Esau struggled, jostled or wrestled within her...all words chosen by the Bible interpreters to hide and deny their sinfulness that is implicit in the word they reject, Strong's Concordance: ratsats: to crush to pieces. In this verse the Hithpoel form means to crush each other to pieces, that is, they were trying to murder each other in the womb! Of course, all orthodoxy which denies any life before the womb MUST deny that they had a life before the womb in which they became evil by their own free will decision ye GOD told their mother that they were fighting over the rights to primogeniture, ie the oldest would inherit everything, a fact that is glossed over with barley a glance so strong is the created on earth theory of our creation.

    So this one story tells us that not only was at least one of the being evil, (one might have been fighting back yet remaining faithful to YHWH but I suspect both were being evil), proving that the foetus in the womb can indeed be evil BUT ALSO that they knew stuff that a foetus cannot have known unless they had learned it before they were conceived, ie sown Matt 13:36-39, while in Sheol before the creation of the physical unverse.


    Ya got the makings of a movie there, son.

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  11. #23
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    <sarcasm ignored>

    Genesis 25:22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said,"Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.

    The babies, Jacob and Esau struggled, jostled or wrestled within her...all words chosen by the Bible interpreters to hide and deny their sinfulness that is implicit in the word they reject, Strong's Concordance: ratsats: to crush to pieces. In this verse the Hithpoel form means to crush each other to pieces, that is, they were trying to murder each other in the womb! Of course, all orthodoxy which denies any life before the womb MUST deny that they had a life before the womb in which they became evil by their own free will decision ye GOD told their mother that they were fighting over the rights to primogeniture, ie the oldest would inherit everything, a fact that is glossed over with barley a glance so strong is the created on earth theory of our creation.

    So this one story tells us that not only was at least one of the being evil, (one might have been fighting back yet remaining faithful to YHWH but I suspect both were being evil), proving that the foetus in the womb can indeed be evil BUT ALSO that they knew stuff that a foetus cannot have known unless they had learned it before they were conceived, ie sown Matt 13:36-39, while in Sheol before the creation of the physical unverse.
    What, do foetuses jostle around too much? Embryo's having a laugh?

    Darned evil non elect zygotes!





    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonahdog View Post
    Interesting how your Holy Book does not seem to provide a consistent answer. Would have thought your deity would be clearer.
    This incredulous approach just has this looking trollish, J-dog. Try to up your game to participant or simply refrain from what is already disdained in your eyes? Just a thought, it is better than another meaningless imposed hiatus, no?

    Look here:

    Psalm 24:1 1 Corinthians 10:26

    Genesis 18:25 Romans 3:5
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamaberean View Post
    1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
    1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
    1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    If a child is born to a family which has a believing mother or father then that baby will be saved.

    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    A baby can not believe, so if it dies without a believing mother or fatther it will just lay in rest. No judgment, good or bad.
    By that same interpretation, an unbelieving wife would go to heaven if she dies while her believing husband is still alive, no judgment, good or bad.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The following words of the Lord Jesus about "little children" prove that He did not believe that little children will populate hell:

    "Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'"
    (Mt.19:13-14).

    At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:

    "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven"
    (Mt.18:1-4).

    We can also see that children are also described as being "an heritage of the Lord":
    "Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward"
    (Ps.127:3).
    Sorry to splash cold water on this parade, but if you are imagining such an absurd scenario as people living while dead in consuming fire that doesn't consume, then you should also consider that if you kept a baby in hell for a few years it would grow up and not be a baby anymore. The original question itself is already fatally flawed.

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    There's a serious flaw apparent in that "babies go to heaven" premise if anyone stops to think what it would really mean to act in faith if that were really to be believed.

    Because if you really believe that "babies go to heaven" but they might not (and probably will not) if they mature, then you should be pro-abortion and try to kill as many of these children as possible before they can grow up and be destined for hell.

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    Hell is an ancient Jewish concept, while "no children in hell" walks hand in hand with this concept. So "we don't know" may be a more suitable answer in terms of how the children will be handled.

    It is natural that immature humans are not subject to judgment, while our New Covenant is only available to those who has a will to choose. Babies don't have a full capability to make such a choice. Children thus can't be judged until they are capable of choosing the New Covenant.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Sorry to splash cold water on this parade, but if you are imagining such an absurd scenario as people living while dead in consuming fire that doesn't consume, then you should also consider that if you kept a baby in hell for a few years it would grow up and not be a baby anymore. The original question itself is already fatally flawed.
    I am arguing infants who die will not find themselves in hell!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    So "we don't know" may be a more suitable answer in terms of how the children will be handled.

    that works for me

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